this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
265 points (84.8% liked)

Dungeons and Dragons

11049 readers
7 users here now

A community for discussion of all things Dungeons and Dragons! This is the catch all community for anything relating to Dungeons and Dragons, though we encourage you to see out our Networked Communities listed below!

/c/DnD Network Communities

Other DnD and related Communities to follow*

DnD/RPG Podcasts

*Please Follow the rules of these individual communities, not all of them are strictly DnD related, but may be of interest to DnD Fans

Rules (Subject to Change)

Format: [Source Name] Article Title

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

From a blog post by Ben Riggs. I thought it was interesting.
------------

“Damn right I am a sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men… They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care.” -Gary Gygax, EUROPA 10/11 August-September 1975

Do TTRPG Historians Lie?

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials. Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizards of the Coast’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:

“These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed.”

— Making OD&D

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.  So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D? 

Is there misogyny in D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class.  It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.) It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.) 

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny. (I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.) Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D.  

Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D. The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen. Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation. The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response. 

I can’t believe Gary wrote this

:(

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said,

“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth. I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’, and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room. They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”

— -Gary Gygax, EUROPA 10/11 August-September 1975

So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.    

Peterson & Tondro are truth-tellers

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases, it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.  How? Let me show you.

That D&D is for Everyone Proves the Brilliance of its Creators

The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent, the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game the world loves? 

We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no shit and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is shit on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you. I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know shit when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all… We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them? Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them.

Or maybe when someone tells you there is shit on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on. 

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like, “Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.” Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG.  And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.    To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda fucked up.   So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators. 

Appendix 1

Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D. But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time. 

Page 9 of Book 1 of OD&D. Note that the “Evil High Priests” are also chaotic.

--------------

Additional Note from me: Images where he sourced the original quotes are in the blog post. They didn't copy over right.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 83 points 4 months ago (4 children)

51 year old here. I remember the 80's. Even ten year old me recognized that some things were mean for no reason. I didn't understand why my mom was so defensive of and everyone else was so derisive of her ex-husband (not my father). He was gay. I noticed bigotry, homophobia, racism, xenophobia, etc. in the most casual ways. I remember eleven year old me laughing my ass off at Sixteen Candles, especially the exchange student, but by my teenage years I was very uncomfortable with the racism, the sexism, and the casual rape thing. I guess being the only child of a single mom who also happened to be a social worker for the poorest people in already poor communities made me more sensitive than others.

My point is that people were shittier in the past, regardless of which point in time you chose to look back from. Hopefully this trend continues and we will be better tomorrow than today. This doesn't make Gygax a complete piece of shite. It makes him just another guy from 1975.

PS: In 1975, the pushback on feminism was fierce because women were literally changing the nation. Just look at some of John Hughes work in National Lampoon and you'll be appalled.

[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 60 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This doesn't make Gygax a complete piece of shite. It makes him just another guy from 1975

The point of the article is that he was a complete piece of shit even by 1975 standards, he was called out by people at the time, and doubled down.

He was a double piece of shite. We have the receipts. We know he was.

[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 27 points 4 months ago (6 children)

Maybe he was. The point should be that we should not let the old hangups of previous generations (I'm 51, my father is older than the oldest boomer, and Gary was even older than my dad) soil the enjoyment of something that brings so many together in such an inclusive way. There is no point denying his faults, but there is also no need to be hung up on them. He's very dead and gone.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 29 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Thanks for your comment. It adds needed context for people who weren't there. I think all of us born before the 2000s can relate to thinking back and realising how wrong we were on some social issue that seems like a total no-brainer now.

It's humbling to realise that even those of us who thought we were "free thinkers" were so totally the product of the dominant culture in many ways.

Just to pick one actually pretty recent example I remember getting so tilted the first time I heard the "my culture is not a custome" logic, like whaaat I can't dress up as a pharaoh if I want to??? lol, cringe

[–] Shyfer@ttrpg.network 18 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I agree. It doesn't mean we ignore all the good they did, but it does give us a more well-rounded view of our heroes, which I think is useful to humanize them. We can take the good and evolve from the bad. This blog post isn't asking anyone to quit D&D, it's asking people to recognize the flaws of our forefathers of the hobby, recognize that the hobby has changed from that time, and to look forward to further change, growth, and inclusion for all of us. They created a game that will live beyond them, which is kind of awesome. At least that's how I read it.

Hell maybe one day I'll have kids and grandkids and they'll think I'm backwards in some way, and I'll be worried or skeptical because I think they're too radical or weird in some way. But in the end, I'll hope they're right despite my misgivings, because the world is better that way - if the world's next generation is able to carry things on and improve the state of affairs at the same time. We should want that and cheer it on. And looking back at things like this, including acknowledging the flaws of our progenitors and ourselves in addition to their great works, it let's us see all that and celebrate it, the path we've taken from there to here.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Lianodel@ttrpg.network 59 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

For those wondering if Gygax grew beyond this kind of thinking, no, he didn't. There's an infamous forum post of his from 2005 where he calls himself a "biological determinist," and says that "females" are generally incapable of enjoying RPGs as much as men "because of a difference in brain function." Could it be that, for some reason, the women he played with just didn't enjoy the games he ran? No! It must be that RPGs are simply beyond their female brains!

Also, anyone have links to a copy of the issue of Europa cited in the article? I'd love a primary document to cite in the future.

[–] Shyfer@ttrpg.network 11 points 4 months ago

He cites the issue in the blog post, but it will probably be a hard one to find on the internet. Someone else in this thread tried, but wonder if it's the kind you have to go to a library and look at that microfiche or microfilm to find. That would be cool if someone finds a link.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 58 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Bruh, 50 years ago everyone was sexist...

This is what progress looks like, people from half a century ago have views that the majority today finds unacceptable.

In 2075 people will hopefully be saying we were bigoted assholes. If not it means progress has stalled.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 83 points 4 months ago (16 children)

No, this isn't the casual sexism of the 70s. This is deliberate, rabid, reactionary misogyny that he felt OK to publicly publish:

I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’, and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’.

That's specific, and directed hatred. Dude was engaging in standard Incel bullshit.

load more comments (16 replies)
[–] Delta_@lemmy.blahaj.zone 76 points 4 months ago (5 children)

There is a difference between casually going along with it as the norm and saying

Damn right I am a sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men… They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care.

just saying

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 26 points 4 months ago (3 children)

The author of D&D is dead, both figuratively and literally. I haven't noticed any particular sexism in 5e. I haven't played any other systems, so I can't comment on those. But the system itself, in its modern incarnation, seems to have shed any sexism Gygax might have written into it.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 31 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's got plenty of latent sexism, much of it carried in the bestiary, and inherited from the original monster manuals. The fact that you don't see it just means it doesn't exceed your own internalized sexism.

Which is fine. We've all internalized sexism, racism, and other prejudices. But you not being able to see it is not the same thing as it not existing, and declaring it absent because you don't see it is probably not wise.

[–] Glowstick@lemmy.world 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I don't know basically anything about dnd, can you give me some specific examples so i can understand what you're saying? Thanks

[–] Ranvier@sopuli.xyz 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (6 children)

Not the person you're replying to, but one example is something like the "hag." I mean I know it's drawing from established folklore, but the original folklore and the word hag itself has some obvious sexist undertones that are carried forward.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hag

Not saying they can't be used in a game, but could be fun to turn it on its head or something and do some subversion of the trope. In general, always good to feel out your players comfort levels with various things beforehand and establish good ground rules before a game starts. Also giving players the opportunity to let a dungeon master know privately if something in the game is overly uncomfortable or alienating or making the game not enjoyable for them.

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Gullible@sh.itjust.works 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

People in 2075: “I hope we can all come together in understanding that not a single one of you fuckers is touching my rats. I braved the wastes, I’m eating them.”

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] lath@lemmy.world 43 points 4 months ago (1 children)

We all are imperfect beings who sometimes manage to achieve wonderful creations. To deny these fruits of labour to their rightful owners is to become hypocrites casting shade over our own unmistakable imperfections.

[–] HipsterTenZero@dormi.zone 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

My unmistakable imperfection is that I deny the fruits of labor to intolerable shitheels whenever I can. I'd boot Gygax out of my table without a second thought. D&D is made by the people at the table, not this dude.

[–] Brunbrun6766@lemmy.world 21 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes and yes, but it WAS made by "this dude" like it or not

[–] IzzyJ@lemmy.world 15 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think of it alot like old racist Loony Tunes (yes its spelled that way). There is baggage, and denying that is inherently a disservice to those effected and us today who can learn from it. But it doesn't taint the whole product either

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 13 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It is actually spelled Looney Tunes.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 26 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Gary sounding a lot like the creator of FATAL right here.

[–] Shyfer@ttrpg.network 14 points 4 months ago (8 children)

Some of those quotes blew my mind. It sounded exactly like FATAL. I couldn't believe it lol.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] figjam@midwest.social 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Gary was part of bringing a cool game into existence. He was also a bit of a power tripping jerk. Just look at the monsters he built. "Oh no! A random monster came along and destroyed all your stuff! How terrible for you."

Just like Morrissey or Kevin Spacey or any other person who has created something cool but also happened to be awful.

[–] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Didn't he famously like hate actual role play too? Like for him it was all just a new and more personal format of tactical war gaming.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] L0rdMathias@sh.itjust.works 23 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Neckbeard gamer from the 1970's that propagated medieval fantasy tabletop games was sexist. More breaking news at 11.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Bunnylux@lemmy.world 20 points 4 months ago

Good article. There's everything right with acknowledging the truthful roots of something while continuing to support its evolution.

[–] audiomodder@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I actually argued with a group of (cisgender, white, straight, middle-aged) men that I was gaming with at the time that there were a lot of black folks claiming that early orcs were based on racist black stereotypes. They said the black folks were “being too sensitive” and that the accusation was “absolutely ridiculous”. Like there’s not an issue with claiming that maybe the makers of D&D were a little racist. Like just make sure we’re not leaning into it now.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] eronth@lemmy.world 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Oof. Sad to learn. I know to some extent people are a product of their time, but this seems like a trite worse than "he was born almost 100 years ago!"

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] TacticsConsort@yiffit.net 17 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Joke's on them I love Tiamat she's fuckin' awesome. More successful evil dragon goddesses with legions of children and cool magic powers please

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] frankgrimeszz@lemmy.world 13 points 4 months ago

People are so unconcerned about stuff back then, they don’t care that Gygax wasn’t even the sole inventor of D&D. Dave Arneson was a co-creator. There was a lot of drama about it back then. Both of them passed away.

[–] charade_you_are@sh.itjust.works 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Not an excuse but I think shitty moms often have a role in creating a dude like Gygax. As many people grow up, they're able to realize that their bad experience shouldn't be applied to every woman out there...obviously. I guess he just went with his damage instead of ever questioning it and dealing with it.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 11 points 4 months ago

Shitty dads too.

load more comments
view more: next ›