Why do Democrats keep trying to appease Fascists?
this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
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Because this will undercut the only politically popular Republican position, which Republicans are currently wielding as a cudgel against the Biden Administration. In the process, Republicans are treating the people crossing the border worse and worse, increasing human suffering. If Biden can take control of the narrative of the border, there is a real possibility he can start to make things better and decrease human suffering.
If Biden can take control of the narrative of the border, there is a real possibility he can start to make things better and decrease human suffering.
There's a possibility he can, but no possibility he will.
What other option does the Biden administration have when working with Republican border states, a split Congress, and a massive right-wing media megaphone of disinformation?
The great thing is that no matter how much he capitulates, Republicans will immediately scream that the borders are wide open.
He could be invading Mexico and shooting anything that moves and Republicans wouldn't accept it as enough.
Partly true. So do nothing and accept that a majority of independents and even a sizable chunk of Democrats have concern over the (admittedly inflated) "border issue"?
No matter what Biden does, Republicans will ignore it and scream "open borders" anyway.
He gains nothing from this but the sheer joy Democrats experience when they throw vulnerable minorities under the bus.
Of course Republicans will. We write them off.
But we're talking about swing voters and independents, and even some Democrats who have this as a top issue.
You lose those, you lose the election, and now life gets very bad for immigrants and minorities for years to come.
Of course Republicans will. We write them off.
We do? Because it sure looks like we're appeasing them.
But we’re talking about swing voters and independents, and even some Democrats who have this as a top issue.
They know better and choose to accept Republican bullshit already. They're gonna keep accepting Republican bullshit.
You lose those, you lose the election, and now life gets very bad for immigrants and minorities for years to come.
And when this round of appeasements fails to work, the same rhetoric will persist and continue to work. And we'll keep hearing that we need to treat them worse and worse to appease people for whom treating them worse is the only goal.
I say again:
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The border issue is a top concern for independents, swing voters, and even many Democrats, based on polling just this week.
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If Democrats don't win the independents and swing-voters, they lose. Period.
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When they lose, you may be happy with your pyrrhic victory, but immigrants and minorities under Trump and Republicans sure won't. Congratulations. You just accelerated the pain and misery for these people.
Unless you can tell me how Democrats can magically win without actually appealing to what independents and swing voters' are telling you is their top concern, then I think we're done here because this defies all reason and patterns of election history.
If you're pissed off that Democrats are doing this, perhaps you should redirect your focus on why these people believe this is an issue in the first place and address the root of the problem.
And it just so happens that when you discover the root of the problem is right-wing media propaganda and its grip on the national narrative, one realizes democrats must often play the game under this unfortunate reality. Because while you're busy driving wedges on Democrats, Republicans rhetoric is lockstep.
I'll say it again: capitulation won't work.
I know it'll make you feel good to throw desperate people under the bus, but that's all this will accomplish.
Losing won't work either. Have to face the brutal reality of elections somehow.
But do go into the oval office and tell Biden, "I know a large amount of Democrats and I know a majority of independents and swing voters cite this as their top issue, but I really think you should do nothing because your hands are tied anyway by Republicans. So yeah, don't even bother appealing to them! Trust me. This is a winning election strategy!"
Capitulating to Republicans won't win anything.
But you'll get to capitulate to Republicans, which is its own reward.
Polling says otherwise.
And just like that, polling this far ahead of the election means something.
Yeah, you're right... What am I thinking. Clearly this issue that has persisted for years and only continued to rise as a concern in voters' minds will go away and it's not a good idea to get a head-start on it in terms of shaping the campaign. Guess Ukrainians should just continue to suffer without aid, too.
"Just a few hundreds more people in concentration camps and thousands more deported, and we can finally stop the Republicans from imprisoning and deporting immigrants and refugees!"
Democrats having a normal one about human rights, eh?
Edit: This may be a good place to remind everyone that the people we're de facto targeting with these policies are people with indigenous roots. This can and should be interpreted through the lens of colonialism and our ongoing genocide against Native groups.
Edit 2: Oh boy I cannot believe I have to say this, but these people with indigenous roots are not limited to Mexico and Central America. Does anyone know anything about history here?? My God, I'd assume if one is going to comment that one would at least have the slightest idea what they're talking about.
Edit 3: And to the people who think it's some kinda "gotcha" to point out that I'm disengaging from people who are shit-deep in the anti-immigrant hysteria, you got me. Nearly half my family are immigrants, some of whom have been detained and/or deported by our racist border policy, and I live surrounded by batshit conservatives. So yes, this is a sensitive and personal issue to me. If I wanted to talk to people like that, I'd go to the gas station or bar. Lemmy is my opportunity to talk to people who at the bare minimum agree on certain fundamental ideals, an opportunity I don't have much in real life. I will block and report you for name calling or other uncivilized attacks on my character.
What, in the purview of an election year (and risk of putting someone obviously orders-of-magnitude worse for such people), with the right-wing border propaganda resonating with many voters, with GOP border states that don't actually want to work with Biden, and with a divided Congress, do you want Biden to do?
It's one thing to throw peanuts from the peanut gallery, but another to look at the pragmatic reality and actual viable options versus consequences.
Treating people's lives like political pawns in a campaign is NOT okay. Stop trying to normalize this shit.
Don't ever speak to me again. Enabling this shit is a horrible thing to do to people. Let's put you in a camp or send you into a violent situation and see how much you like it. "BuT iT's ElEcTiOn YeAr" I don't care
I say again since you're obviously deflecting: It’s one thing to throw peanuts from the peanut gallery, but another to look at the pragmatic reality and actual viable options versus consequences.
You can live with your idealistic pyrrhic victory while you naively reject the reality of the political consequences and put someone far worse in power. But you do you, buddy.
The election year eternal immigrant caravan strikes again. I get the move politically, but it’s unfortunate the GOP is so much better at messaging and controlling public focus than the Dems. They have no answer but to play the game on Republican terms.
Not that Republicans want to actually solve the issue because much like abortion it's better to always be a looming scare tactic to use politically, but I kind of appreciate this move because the border is literally the only thing Republicans remotely have going into this election... And frankly, that isn't much. This border crisis thing has gone on for years and no matter how much they try to use it against Dems, it ultimately doesn't particularly impact voting outcomes all that much.
- They can't talk about the economy.
- They can't talk about covid.
- They can't talk about Law & Order without being reminded of Trump's 91 criminal charges.
... Border is all that is resonating a little with (frankly ignorant) voters.
dont forget abortion! they accidentally removed that from their list!
Yeah I was going to clarify.. That completely backfired.
Like most issues: if we let Republicans completely have what they want, it is overwhelmingly unpopular. If we let Democrats have what they want, it is overwhelmingly popular, generally.
So why is the Biden administration doing what Republicans want here? Their name and our party's name is going to be all over the overwhelmingly unpopular policies and Republicans are just going to keep saying the border's a problem no matter what we do
Because no matter how one slices it, the "border issue" is the only thing that is resonating with voters.
The partisan split on the issue is broad, with 81 percent of Republicans, 68 percent of independents and 45 percent of Democrats saying conditions are worsening — 34 percent of Democrats said conditions are staying the same, while 21 percent said they’re improving.
It has overtaken Inflation as the #1 issue.
Because Democrats can't actually do what needs to be done to solve the root problems of the border issue, the only option is to absorb the position of Republicans to take the wind out of their sails, and hopefully, be more responsible and discretionary in the process itself. Yeah Republicans will refuse to give Biden that victory, but Biden can still rebuttal in ads and on debate stages, "Oh yeah? I agreed to doing everything and more than what Republicans want and you're still obstructing me!" (so in reality, like you said: nothing will change anyway because Republicans won't actually endorse this and lose their last political bruiser, so what's to lose?)
A link for that quote would be appreciated.
Because Democrats can't actually do what needs to be done to solve the root problems of the border issue
They could be doing more to improve things and stop crap like this that makes it worse
absorb the position of Republicans to take the wind out of their sails
I have no earthly idea how you could think this will do that, it's going to do the exact opposite by making all the people who aren't really paying attention say "Gosh, I guess the Republicans must be right about this if the Democrats are trying to to pass their type of policies. I guess if we need a Republican approach to solve this totally real issue we should probably get it from a Republican government."
Biden can still rebuttal in ads and on debate stages, "Oh yeah? I agreed to doing everything and more than what Republicans want
Republicans: "Biden's lying or has Alzheimer's, we wanted [xyz crap they make up on the spot] and Biden never offered it."
Journalists: "Our fact checkers sai-"
Republicans: "Fake news"
Voters: "I like their confidence! And besides, when I think 'tough' on the border or crime or whatever, I know that isn't Democrats, that's the Republican's thing! Maybe a Democrat will talk tough when they want to get reelected but they won't ever really do it, and there is absolutely nothing that can happen to change my mind about this because I don't pay attention to anything because the news depresses me."
so what's to lose?)
If this legislation does pass people will suffer and die
e; trying to be less of a sarcastic asshole
Sure.
They could be doing more to improve things and stop crap like this that makes it worse
This is conveniently ambiguous. What, specifically?
I have no earthly idea how you could think this will do that, it’s going to do the exact opposite by making all the people who aren’t really paying attention say “Gosh, I guess the Republicans must be right about this if the Democrats are trying to to pass their type of policies. I guess if we need a Republican approach to solve this totally real issue we should probably get it from a Republican government.”
Why would you think that and not, "Gosh, I think Democrats are actually doing a pretty good job and I really don't want to vote for Trump, and since they seem to be trying to solve the border issue as well which was my chief concern, I really don't have a reason to not vote for them now."?
You have to remember that the independents / moderates / centrists in this country are pretty easily-swayed. They go with the currents. They get fixated on the national talking-points that tend to be governed by the onslaught of right-wing media propaganda that dominates the airwaves and social media.
If people are saying: "I like Democrats, but I am concerned about the border," -- what option do Democrats have BUT to at least LOOK like they're cracking down on this issue (even if they know deep-down the premise is bullshit)?
- So you're Biden.
- You can't actually change the current events in any meaningful way with a split Congress and Republican border states unwilling to work with you.
- Yet you're still being blamed publicly for not "handling" the border.
- Public polling is showing your team that this is the ONLY thing that is really sticking with swing voters.
- You know it's all bullshit, but you can't publicly state this because right-wing media propaganda is controlling the narrative.
- You know if you lose, someone proven far, far worse will get in and be orders-of-magnitude worse for such immigrants.
- So what do you do...?
- You Call the Bluff of Republicans. You say, "Okay let's do it. But give me control to do it."
- Republicans obviously won't because they don't actually want to do this; they just want to use it as a political tool to hammer Democrats with.
- Nothing changes, but now you can at least have a rebuttal come election season.
What is wrong with this, and what alternative do you offer, substantively, concretely?
If this legislation does pass people will suffer and die
It won't. Trump already undermined it. And if it does, Democrats win the election and can reverse it instead of it just passing a year down the road and being in place for much, much longer with even more people dying.
Edit: Sorry I forgot to respond to this:
Voters: “I like their confidence! And besides, when I think ‘tough’ on the border or crime or whatever, I know that isn’t Democrats, that’s the Republican’s thing! Maybe a Democrat will talk tough when they want to get reelected but they won’t ever really do it, and there is absolutely nothing that can happen to change my mind about this because I don’t pay attention to anything because the news depresses me.”
Fairly, I do agree there are voters out there like this. The question is how many versus how many who go, "Well, at least I see Democrats are trying, and what difference is it when Trump said he'd build the wall but didn't... So I think I'll just go with the stable choice since the border was my #1 issue and that was my last concern for voting for Biden. Trump is otherwise just too risky..."
And I mean not to sound like a broken record, but what is the alternative plan -- just ignore the fact that a majority of independents view this as a major concern and the border issue (again, manufactured as it is) is now the #1 issue with voters overall? Is that really a winning strategy?
Regardless, you and I aren't privy to the massive amount of polling and focus groups these campaigns with millions of dollars have. Clearly, they have data that probably fills in the gaps that you and I can only otherwise speculate over.
Thank you for the link!
I don't have time to respond to all of this, but there are a few things I just gotta
This is conveniently ambiguous. What, specifically?
Ask all your federal agencies what resources they have on hand that could be redirected to humanitarian efforts for migrants and asylum seekers, order those resources deployed immediately with an executive order. When federal courts strike it down for a bullshit reason, change one or two superficial details, reissue the order, and again make it effective immediately. Trump did this with his travel bans and showed a determined executive can move a lot faster than oversight.
Exploiting a badly designed system is not an ideal long term solution I'll admit, but so long as the Republican party continues to exist and make solving those system design problems impossible it will have to do.
Also, ditch the filibuster and pack the Supreme Court with like thirteen new appointments, right after slapping yourself in the face several times for not doing this years ago.
Why would you think that and not, "Gosh, I think Democrats are actually doing a pretty good job and I really don't want to vote for Trump, and since they seem to be trying to solve the border issue as well which was my chief concern, I really don't have a reason to not vote for them now."?
"The border is in crisis right now, but I think Democrats are doing a good job," just seems like a really unlikely pair of opinions to hold to me.
I also feel like if you're in a headspace where the border is your chief concern (with things like climate change, mass shootings, healthcare, affordable housing, Russia, Israel, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. all at different levels of crisis), you're going to be a harder sell on the big tent party.
And just in general, one of the axioms about human behavior I believe is that if you do not like what is being said you need to change the conversation. I'm thinking of those easily swayed moderates when I say our approach should be, "The border? Sure, we want to get funding from Congress to provide needed services there and that's in process, but what's driving this migration is climate change, and that's why this administration has etc."
You know it's all bullshit, but you can't publicly state this because right-wing media propaganda is controlling the narrative.
Because you do not state this right wing media propaganda controls the narrative, imo
but what is the alternative plan -- just ignore the fact that a majority of independents view this as a major concern and the border issue (again, manufactured as it is) is now the #1 issue with voters overall? Is that really a winning strategy?
If it's done with a bit of tact and coordination, yeah. Try not to seem like you're ignoring it by responding to it quickly, but if you're giving it more than one or two sentences you're wasting time that should be spent talking about more important issues.
I'll try to narrow down to my central point, but first points I agree with:
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Yeah, I believe Biden should do as much as possible to alleviate the suffering for those seeking a better life and seeking asylum within the purview of existing laws.
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Yeah I agree the filibuster should be ditched (thank Sinema for blocking that)
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Yeah I agree the Supreme Court needs overhauled (though I can't say I'm a legal expert and I know there are a few routes to take with this).
The existential question at hand is: How do we keep Trump and the Republican party and Project 2025 away from power?
Because if entropy teaches us anything, it's always easier to smash a a trillion-piece puzzle than to preserve it let alone build upon it.
Would Biden be acting this way if he had a super-majority in Congress and a fair Supreme Court? I think the answer is fairly clear that he would not. So I think this is what we need to work towards first and foremost.
“The border is in crisis right now, but I think Democrats are doing a good job,” just seems like a really unlikely pair of opinions to hold to me.
But here's the key thing: This is the position of many. From that link I gave you, along with this WaPo article titled, "Democrats' border problem is getting real -- they highlight the fact that this is impacting not just swing-voters and independents, but a large swath of Democrats, themselves. That is, indeed, a problem that the Biden administration is clearly concerned about.
Nevertheless, until polling shifts I truly don't think the Biden administration has a choice but to cater to the concerns of these crucial voters, lest he loses and things get very bad very quickly. In the end I believe it would be incredibly hard to pith during an Oval Office meeting to Biden by saying, "Yeah independents, swing voters, and even a large chunk of Democrats consider the (manufactured) border crisis a huge issue, but we don't believe you should concern yourself with this." Meanwhile Ukraine's funding is slipping because of Republicans holding this aid hostage. Unfortunately because of this, every single press conversation and every single debate with Republicans is going to arise the issue of the border crisis.
And while I completely agree with you that that we should "change the conversation" and go to the root of the problem and try to alter the outcome of the polls themselves, that's a long-term strategy and easier said than done when right-wing media propaganda has complete domination on the national narrative — especially in the aftermath of Citizens United and SpeechNow decisions. Forget the fact that there is a clear foreign presence influencing dialogue as well (Russia; likely China). In that respect, I also do think that Biden should redirect the conversation every single time to not just climate change, but to the domestic right-wing extremist terrorist threat within our borders itself. Any time the border comes up, redirect to the threat to Democracy itself and the FBI's pointing out that these are the most dangerous individuals to national security. Not the poor migrants fleeing crime and poverty south of the border. But simultaneously, Biden's campaign has little choice but to respond to the polls as they are now and address it. And to me, I love the move to side-step Republicans and call their bluff.
Can someone explain to me why the border shouldn’t be closed except to legal travel?
Because it sounds to me like illegal travel SHOULD be stopped. People immigrating illegally are working for super low wages, increasing supply of labor and therefore lowering demand. It’s bad for workers. I know people say “Americans won’t do those jobs” but that’s because they are paying nothing since they can get highly desperate exploitable people. Labor should be on the side of restricted immigration.
Note I’m not talking about asylum, but the USA shouldn’t be the only place people go for asylum. It’s my impression that most immigrants are economic anyways.
There is no good reason except to create an underclass that provdes cheap labor. You know, like in 1860.
What a stupid thing to focus on. I hate that the southern border is even a topic people bring up. It's a completely made up problem.
6 million illegals in 3 years. Its a problem. Hell a couple thousand caused problems for NYC. How do tiny border towns stand a chance?
You're forgetting that the entire reason why so many people enter illegally* is because it's next to impossible to enter legally unkess you have lots of connections in the US. Your average foreigner doesn't stand a chance.
Don't want 6 million people to enter illegally? Make it easier to enter legally. It's that simple, yet people like you will never understand that. "Securing the border" only makes the problem worse. We should be opening it instead.
493,000 immigrant visas were given out in 2022. It's extremely easy to enter, just too many too quick, and y'all have to wait your turn.
Eh, but how much of that is tourist visas. And where are they coming from.
I'm of the opinion that an open border with Mexico is an issue. Which just should not be controversial.
But I'm also married to someone who entered with a tourism visa. Legal immigration is nearly impossible in the US. There are very very few options for a person to enter the country and be on a path to a green card. Saying otherwise is purely ignorant.
Non immigrant visas are up to 6.8 million in 2022.
You should look at what the requirements look like for an immigrant Visa. The average person in South America does not have the ability to satisfy those requirements. But that doesn't mean they are unable to become a valuable and contributing member of society.
I know people in the US that came here illegally and have gone on to become business owners. But only because they were able to meet and marry a US citizen.
There needs to be a legal path to entry. And we should be stopping the flood of people coming over the border at the same time.
We can only take so many, so quickly. What we're doing now is completely unsustainable.
So why not select for the best and brightest?
Stand a chance to what?
Maintain infrastructure, pay for roads that can handle the traffic, pay for public schools that can handle the masses, pay for enough fire fighters and trucks, shit like that, and ramp up in the time frame of 3 years
That's what taxes are for. Which undocumented immigrants pay.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-immigrants-taxes-rent-vaccine-requirements-983035929946
They pay sales taxes, sure. But they don't pay income or property taxes, not without an SSN. (Texas does not have an income tax, but has property taxes. The Feds have an income tax. Don't be pedantic)
Undocumented immigrants pay income tax if they use someone else's SSN or even without an SSN by using an ITIN
So you're suggesting that illegal immigrants should steal identities to pay taxes?
Sorry... so you're blaming immigrants for the fact that Texas' tax regulations are severely fucked up?
Maybe Texas shouldn't cater so much of their tax code to rich people? Shouldn't that be the issue?
How is having property tax but not income tax fucked up? How does it cater to rich people, any more than having income tax?