this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2024

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Using a Firefox fork makes any difference? (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 month ago by NONE_dc@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

56 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Well, Mozilla seems to be making some pretty questionable decisions, So I'm considering switching browsers for the third (Is it the third?) time. The thing is, I really like the way Firefox works, so I've been trying out the more famous Forks like Waterfox and Librewolf, although I'm going for Floorp. However, I'm wondering: is using a fork enough? I mean, they are Forks maintained by other people, but is there a chance that whatever Mozilla does to Firefox could affect those Forks? Should I jump to a totally different browser like Vivaldi?

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[–] zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world 105 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (5 children)

Mozilla isn't doing anything to Firefox. The Anonym purchase you linked to was literally to acquire a technology they developed which would, if implemented web-wide, end the dystopian nightmare of privacy invasion that is the current paradigm where a few dozen large companies track everything everyone does on the internet all the time. "Privacy preserving" isn't just a buzzword in that article - privacy is actually preserved, and the companies involved (including Mozilla) learn nothing at all about you - not your name, not an "anonymous" identifier, not your behavior, nothing. Moreso, Anonym didn't just create this technology, the entire company was purpose-founded to create this technology.

There's a lot of misinformation floating around about Mozilla in particular at the moment. Very little of the animosity they receive is truly deserved once you dig past the narrative and find out what Mozilla's actually up to, and why.

[–] ArbiterXero@lemmy.world 49 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Continuous Mozilla hit pieces coming out….

I wonder which company motivated only by greed and the fact that their entire business model is “obliterating your privacy” is behind them

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's the one that will "do no evil" - right?

[–] flashgnash@lemm.ee 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Either you make a deal with the devil or use the company that made the deal so you don't have to

[–] warbond@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Limited Liability Corporations exist for that very reason. I think a dude in France made a deal with a cave lion of some sort.

[–] Benjaben@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Thanks for sharing this, hope ya continue 🤙

[–] funtrek@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 1 month ago (8 children)

I don’t give a fuck about ads. And so should my browser.

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[–] grandma@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

So instead of multiple providers tracking people all the time there will be a single company doing it, but it's okay because I should trust them for what reason? Why wouldn't tracking companies just use their own tracking on top of this new technology?

[–] lowdude@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I didn’t read too much into it, but roughly speaking: Because the technology by design aggregates data immediately and drops any personal identifiers/ the unaggregated data in the process. Other companies can build whatever they want on that, but if done properly, it is impossible to reconstruct user-specific data points and profile the users that way.

This type of privacy-preserving aggregation technique is not new, it is fairly common for things like demographic data, where you want to know things like population density and incomes for some area, without just publishing an exact address with corresponding income for every person (as an example).

Edit: I think I missed your point a little bit. I am unsure, but it seemed that Anonymous is responsible for designing the framework, not doing any tracking (i.e. it wouldn’t necessarily be “put all trust into them collecting it”). Maybe rolling out that technology could be done in a way of blocking other tracking, or maybe it is intended as a basis for regulations to take up. Maybe someone else can give more informed input on that.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 47 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Using a Chromium-based browser when you're bother by ad tech makes no sense whatsoever. Chromium is mostly developed by an ad company.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 12 points 1 month ago

Remember folks, Chromium project is under Google's control. They don't care about web-standards. They just make their own standards since they have a 70% market share. The only notable Chromium fork which is worth mentioning is Ungoogled Chromium.

[–] geoma@lemmy.ml 41 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Vivaldi is a no go, it is proprietary software and also based in chromium. I've had similar thought process to yours and I am also using Floorp. Librewolf is great but too privacy hardened for the common lay user. These forks are cleaning the s*** out of firefox so no need to worry.

[–] Mwa@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

There is the source code but the Eula conflicts with it and the ui is only proprietary

[–] SeikoAlpinist@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 month ago (8 children)

Floorp and Zen are to Firefox what Vivaldi is to Chrome.

They provide a better UI and other features and strip out a lot of the bad stuff from the parent browser.

But fundamentally, Floorp and Zen and Vivaldi would not continue very long if the upstream decided to suddenly stop producing code, or altered their codebase in a significant manner. (This is what killed Palemoon and Seamonkey). This is always a threat.

So really, it's a shit situation for browsers right now. Just choose a browser engine and then pick whatever UI you like the most on top of it.

I'm optimistic that Servo turns out to be the new Mozilla without repeating its mistakes. It should be the reference implementation browser upon which everything will rebase and it should remain non-profit. This was the original goal of open source Mozilla 25 years ago but then the techbro crew rolled in and started grifting.

(I'm also aware that WebKit still exists but Gnome Web is seemingly the only browser built with it and there are no extensions).

Today the Mozilla Corporation is just a place for the already wealthy to funnel money into their golden parachutes. It's a grift. Personally I think it's time to move on. Last week I pulled the plug, deleted my ~/.mozilla directory, so for the first time in a quarter century I don't have anything Mozilla-related installed.

[–] Mwa@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

Servo is still worked on by linux foundation but I think it's in experimental

[–] SatyrSack 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

(I'm also aware that WebKit still exists but Gnome Web is seemingly the only browser built with it and there are no extensions).

The engine behind Safari? That is one of the most used browsers today, even moreso than Firefox?

[–] SeikoAlpinist@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 month ago

Never heard of it.

Haha j/k, of course Safari too, good catch. Just a non-starter for me since I don't use any of the platforms it's on.

[–] Benjaben@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What are you using for your browser now?

[–] SeikoAlpinist@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

--Gnome Web from Flathub

--Chromium in the Debian repo

--Chromium in the CalyxOS build

I would love to use Vivaldi and this is likely the best option left since it's all the old Opera devs, but FFS just make it libre software guys. They seem to be financially stable with their team of like 30 people and run one of the largest Mastodon instances and have a great community.

Its got the best interface out of any of the Chrome reskins, especially with the left side tabs. They are trolling Mozilla right now with the whole, "we are the only browser not run by a marketing company or trying to build AI into the browser."

But for me it being closed is a non-starter.

Like for fucks sake just make it libre software. Brave is open and literally nobody is building on top of it (morally bankrupt company though), what does Vivaldi have to lose by becoming libre software? They have nothing to lose and a competitive advantage to gain by becoming libre. There's literally a community waiting to embrace you.

FWIW, I am kind of behind the curve. I used the Mozilla Suite from Milestone 18 all the way until it was SeaMonkey and didn't switch until 2009 or so; then Firefox/Thunderbird until earlier this month. So if you have suggestions, I'm open.

[–] Benjaben@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Heard anything about Mullvad's browser? You seem knowledgeable about the topic. I use their VPN already, still using Firefox for my browser though. I'm further behind the curve than you are, lol.

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[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago

None of the forks are immune to Mozilla enshittifing the engine itself.

Browser engines are complicated beasts, the w3c specifications are thousands of pages and a proper engine would have to implement it all.

It's the reason why not a single chromium fork is able to maintain manifest v2 in defiance of Google, because they would have to then maintain the engine themselves for the most part

[–] verdigris@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago

There are two choices, Chrome/Chromium and Firefox. Firefox is the good one.

[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Using a Firefox clone saves you the hassle of manually remove all the stupid annoyances and user tracking Mozilla enables by default. But that’s basically it. Except a preconfigured setup and a new name and logo pretty much nothing is different.

Vivaldi is just Chromium with a non-free UI.

[–] lapislazuli 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Can you give an example for this user tracking? I'm using firefox and I can't think of anything that isn't opt-in.

[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nothing of this is opt-in:

By default, Mozilla collects […] information about the number of open tabs and windows or number of webpages visited. […] The data collected is associated with a randomly generated identifier that is unique to each Firefox client.

and

Firefox by default sends data about what features you use in Firefox to Leanplum, our mobile marketing vendor […] Leanplum tracks events such as when a user loads bookmarks, opens new tab, opens a pocket trending story, clears data, saves a password and login, takes a screenshot, downloads media, interacts with search URL or signs into a Firefox Account.

and

[Leanplum collects] certain information, which may include your browser’s Internet Protocol (IP) address, your browser type, the nature of the device from which you are visiting the Service[…], the identifier for any handheld or mobile device that you may be using, the Web site that you visited immediately prior to accessing any Web-based Service, the actions you take on our Service, […] We also may collect information regarding your interaction with e-mail messages, such as whether you opened, clicked on, or forwarded a message.

https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/the-firefox-browser-is-a-privacy-nightmare-on-desktop-and-mobile/

[–] lapislazuli 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Thanks, I didn't know that all this stuff is enabled by default. They don't even care to inform their users when you install firefox...

[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

You can’t even turn all of this off via UI, but need to use about:config or user.js (the later needs to be explicitly enabled via about:config first).

Here’s my setup (except some specific settings based on my personal preferences that are not related to privacy).

// Do not leak URLs, IPs, etc. to external services
user_pref('browser.safebrowsing.malware.enabled', false);
user_pref('browser.safebrowsing.phishing.enabled', false);
user_pref('network.trr.mode', 5); // DoH explicitly off
user_pref('security.OCSP.enabled', 0);
user_pref('browser.contentblocking.category', 'custom');
user_pref('app.shield.optoutstudies.enabled', false);
user_pref('browser.urlbar.trending.featureGate', false);

// Disable hidden extensions
user_pref('extensions.pocket.enabled', false);
user_pref('extensions.screenshots.disabled', true);

// Remove new tab spam
user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.showSponsoredTopSites', false);
user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.section.topstories', false);
user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.topsites', false);

// Disable telemetry
user_pref('datareporting.policy.dataSubmissionEnabled', false);
user_pref('datareporting.healthreport.uploadEnabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.unified', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.server', 'data:,');
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.archive.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.newProfilePing.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.shutdownPingSender.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.updatePing.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.bhrPing.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.firstShutdownPing.enabled', false);
user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.coverage.opt-out', true);
user_pref('toolkit.coverage.opt-out', true);
user_pref('toolkit.coverage.endpoint.base', '');
user_pref('browser.ping-centre.telemetry', false);
user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.telemetry', false);
user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.telemetry', false);
user_pref('breakpad.reportURL', '');
user_pref('browser.tabs.crashReporting.sendReport', false);
user_pref('browser.crashReports.unsubmittedCheck.autoSubmit2', false);
user_pref('app.shield.optoutstudies.enabled', false);
user_pref('app.normandy.enabled', false);
user_pref('app.normandy.api_url', '');

// Disable AI bullshit
user_pref('browser.ml.enable', false);
user_pref('browser.ml.chat.enabled', false);
user_pref('browser.ml.chat.shortcuts', false);
user_pref('browser.ml.chat.sidebar', false);
user_pref('pdfjs.enableAltText', false);
user_pref('pdfjs.enableUpdatedAddImage', false);

[–] flashgnash@lemm.ee 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Floorp is just Firefox with some extensions, Vivaldi iirc is still chromium underneath etc etc

Your best option is just plain old Firefox configured the way you like it

There are a couple of new "from the ground up" browsers being developed at the moment but they aren't ready from what I understand

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 15 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I would like to add Librewolf, which is = Firefox - (Mozilla tracking/recommendations) + security hardening

Don't expect it to behave like a normal browser. If you think some feature is disabled, it's to avoid browser fingerprinting, not because it's buggy. Read their FAQ before committing to the browser.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nothing questionable that Mozilla does can affect the forks, as long as the forks have enough manpower to sustain themselves. There are, in fact, a few examples of projects with questionable leadership getting abandoned by their userbase, as everyone migrates to the fork.

I think what you need to worry about is whether the fork you're using has enough momentum and developer time that it's going to stay alive. That's a concern whether or not you have a concern that the central leadership is going to do something obscene.

[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Except if they start to enshittify the gecko engine itself, like Google did with Manifest V3. There isn't a fork out there afaik that has the main power and expertise to maintain the complicated beast that is a browser engine

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Huh?

Manifest v3 is not the rendering engine. The issue with manifest v3 is that the extension format is changing, so it'll be more difficult to make ad blocker extensions work on Chrome. But a Chromium fork that is focused on privacy, of which there are several, and an ad blocker of which there are several, want to work together to make sure that their ad blocker is still working on the Chromium fork in question, it's hard for me to see it being insurmountably difficult for them to collaborate on an API that will let it happen.

It's not automatic, it can be difficult since they're diverging from Chromium. But it is not on the same scale as trying to maintain a divergent browser engine.

[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Yea, I wasnt entirely clear, I brought up Manifest v3 as a "this is already complicated, and a browser engine is even more complicated" example

No Chromium fork maintains Mv2 anyways even though it is easier, and yes some do have their own builtin AdBlock and are able to function well that way. But I do not consider that ideal, one would be entirely dependent on their AdBlock implementation where as if a fork maintains Mv2 then you would be able to just change your extension if you don't like something about it

[–] FeelThePower@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 month ago

I've tried many but waterfox has been my home since earlier this year. it comes configured out of the box with about the privacy settings I'd normally use, as well as my preferred userchrome built in.

[–] MimicJar@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

So I'm considering switching browsers for the third (Is it the third?) time.

I don't think switching browsers is a big deal. Obviously switching every day would be a burden and being forced to switch is annoying, but I don't think the switch has to be a big all or nothing.

I do think Firefox or one of it's derivatives are probably the best choice, but I'd say be flexible. I use Firefox for the majority of my mobile browsing, but Chime sneaks in depending on the task. On my laptop I use Chrome most of the time, but I've also got Firefox open for others. Perhaps that's insane, but it works for me.

If you like Firefox, keep using Firefox. If you want to try a derivative, test them out. If they suck in 6 months, try something new. Try a bunch of new things.

At the end of the day the best option is the browser experience you like best.

[–] gianni@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

JPEG XL support in Waterfox is nice.

[–] kuneho@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

[–] zerozaku@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Since the discussion has come up, let me ask this here.

I have been using Mull for sometime now. It's all good but are there any forks of Firefox that are like chromium forks eg Cromite? Cromite is really good as it offers a ton of extra features too. Mull is great as far as privacy is concerned but I want few features as well. Especially if I could change the app logo and launch animation to stock Firefox that'd be great.

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