this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2024
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[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 1 points 16 minutes ago

what if it was me

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 3 points 55 minutes ago* (last edited 54 minutes ago)

The Post apocalyptic nature of alot of media makes me think that people can more easily Imagine the fall of human civilization then we can a better world where everyone's needs are met.

To the 1%, losing all your wealth and power be an apocalypse, so it is in their best interests that everyone would be thinking the same as well. No matter how much better we all would be together otherwise.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

People who defend billionaires either have a vested interest, have actually bought that they're 1000x smarter than normal people, or have some (possibly vague) abstract moral position that overrules the basic idea of fairness. Often it's more than one.

Capitalism, as the term is commonly used, is poorly defined enough that you have to specify what it means here. Is it any kind of market? Is it large corporations? Is it every interaction being purely voluntary (somehow)? If you consider a big Soviet firm like Gosbank a "corporation", all three could also be socialist depending on who you ask.

Since this is .ml, for the classical Marxist definition that it's "private ownership of the means of production", the arguments are mainly against the proposed alternatives, or just that private vs. personal is hard to demarcate, and nobody wants to share a toothbrush.

[–] etchinghillside@reddthat.com 5 points 2 hours ago

Our retirement is tied to it.

[–] hostops@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

About defending capitalism (and not billionaires - who more often than not abuse this system). Some of us lived in other systems. And we understand any other system is way way way way worse.

There are however a lot of problems with capitalism and should be held on a very short leash. Or else monopoly happens. The most effective actions to keep capitalism at bay: strong anti-trust laws, strong worker protection (this includes a lot of stuff), wealth tax.

And be aware there are many flavours of calitalism. Most commonly people in USA are the most extreme where you have really "long leash". And people see such capitalism as failing and want to replace whole system.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 hours ago (3 children)

There are however a lot of problems with capitalism and should be held on a very short leash. Or else monopoly happens. The most effective actions to keep capitalism at bay: strong anti-trust laws, strong worker protection (this includes a lot of stuff), wealth tax.

Capitalism eats the leash, you can't avoid this.

[–] ultranaut@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Stick a finger up its butt and the leash will get spit back out? I think I read that somewhere, not sure if it works.

[–] aStonedSanta@lemm.ee 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

As the above commenter mentioned it is possible to stop it eating the leash so to speak. The main problem is keeping all of those protections actually in place. We don’t seem to want to codify worker rights or anything else important to the constitution.

[–] hostops@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 hours ago
[–] hostops@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

This is simply not true. And whole EU is doing this more or less effectively. But your government has to be very very careful since this sure can happen.

In recent years we have seen degradation of this leash. But EU commission started keeping up with global monopolies.

I believe also in USA they are making some antitrust changes after a few decades of sleeping.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

In recent years we have seen degradation of this leash.

Proving me correct.

[–] hostops@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Read all my statements again. And apply strict mathematic logic.

Few years of degradation of antitrust laws and some effective reforms in this year alone does not in any way prove your point.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 hour ago

It absolutely does. Follow the trends and the mechanisms.

[–] tunetardis@lemmy.ca 14 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

I guess the central premise of capitalism is that while every society has its haves and have nots, capitalism is supposed to encourage the haves to invest in the economy rather than hoarding their wealth. In return, they stand to get even wealthier, but a stronger economy ought to generate more employment and generally improve the lives of commoners as well.

Unfortunately, in a never-ending quest to make wealth-generation more efficient and streamlined, employment is being eliminated through automation, outsourcing, etc. and the system is eating itself out from the inside. I doubt it can persist much longer, but what will replace it remains unclear. I pray that it will be something sensible that ensures everyone has their basic needs met and can still find rewarding pursuits in life. But there are so many ways it could go very wrong, and that includes staying on the current course.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 hours ago

I guess the central premise of capitalism is that while every society has its haves and have nots, capitalism is supposed to encourage the haves to invest in the economy rather than hoarding their wealth. In return, they stand to get even wealthier, but a stronger economy ought to generate more employment and generally improve the lives of commoners as well.

Nitpicky, but that's the premise of Liberalism, not Capitalism. Capitalism emerged not because it was an idea, but an evolution in Mode of Production. Liberalism is the ideological justification.

Unfortunately, in a never-ending quest to make wealth-generation more efficient and streamlined, employment is being eliminated through automation, outsourcing, etc. and the system is eating itself out from the inside. I doubt it can persist much longer, but what will replace it remains unclear. I pray that it will be something sensible that ensures everyone has their basic needs met and can still find rewarding pursuits in life. But there are so many ways it could go very wrong, and that includes staying on the current course.

Have you read Marx? He makes the case that due to Capitalism's tendency to centralize and form monopolist syndicates with internal planning, the next mode of production is Socialism, ie public ownership and planning of the syndicates formed by the market system.

[–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 70 points 7 hours ago (3 children)

Many people do not grasp the sheer size of the disparity between the truly wealthy and everyone else.

They really think billionaires are like them, the only difference is that someone else goes to Walmart for them

[–] hostops@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

I believe your comments is just a paraphrase of: "They are being stupid"

In my opinion this is a very toxic way of thinking and does not try to understand the arguments "the other side" presents.

[–] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 2 points 1 hour ago

I don't think it's that bad-faith. I myself still find it positively mind-blowing to comprehend when the data is right in front of me.

Someone might equate wealth to hard work, but it hasn't really hit them, the real literal difference between 1 million dollars, and 1 billion, and then the news is talking about "trillionaires."

There's just no way to earn a billion dollars, to yourself, through honest work and by not exploiting others. And I think a lot of folks really don't realize this. They know that's a lot, but they might change their mind and realize how outrageous it is, when you present them with something like:

"Joe, you could get 3 more promotions and work 80 hours a week for 13 lifetimes and still not earn that much. Do you really think this is just petty jealousy at play?"

They might just change their mind.

But a lot of folks grew up in a time or place where people who ran the company started at the bottom, and it really needs to hit them hard that this just isn't reality anymore.

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[–] AliSaket@mander.xyz 17 points 5 hours ago

Many reasons. One major factor imho is the belief or illusion to be living in a meritocracy. Which would mean, that someone who's rich has to have earned it and therefore criticism must stem from envy or jealousy. The same belief fuels the ideology of thinking of poor people to just be lazy leeches on society.

[–] Fiivemacs@lemmy.ca 54 points 7 hours ago (7 children)

I assume they think they will be able to achieve the same status in the game that's designed to literally oppress them and make them think they are cared by the billionaires.

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