OOP describes themselves as "pro-corporation", thinks modern Russia is communist, and seems to spend an awful lot of time immersed in 4chan. Either they're trolling or they're about as bright as a cloudy night sky, and I don't much care which it is
this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2024
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That would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I'm pretty sure even Soviet Union wasn't communist, despite their attempts to pretend otherwise
Soviet Russia never really said it was communist, neither did the other east European states. They said they had socialism and communism was the goal to reach in the future.
Ad hominem arguments never work very well. Just admit you don't have all the answers to this totally relevant question and move on.
Fuck, you nearly got me there
Are they under the impression that capitalism (or any economic philosophy) has some sort of authoritative answer to the wild possibility of an alien encounter?
They are pretty much asking if socialists will allow people to do capitalism on aliens if they are weaker than us.
"If we stop exploiting humans, can we still exploit other undiscovered intelligent species?"
Gonna be either trade or conquest
I mean, standard marching orders for capitalism/imperialism are:
if someone else has it, take it from them. Weapons free.
Have you not read the relevant chapters in The Wealth of Nations?
The Posadists answer this question by asserting that any advanced alien civilisation will have developed Full Communism, in which case the Space Comrades can teach it to humanity.
"Yes Patrick, the Aliens also get human rights."
Socialism doesn't support grabbing other people's means of production, it's about how we manage our own.
As a socialist; I am in shambles right now.
What are socialists planning to do if we discover time travel??
Exploit the resources and peoples of the past by subjugating them to future tech and making the uninformed believe that we are immutable gods, and.... oh wait, you said socialism
Imma do your mom.
Son.
Go back in time and sit on a fish
... Maybe we should follow the golden rule if they aren't trying to kill us... IDK seems obvious to me
Yup, and there's actually a closer-to-home question to answer along these lines, which is what to do about AGI, and I think the simple answer is that it also has full personhood and all the recognition that comes with that.
And there's an obvious test to figure it out. It's not the turing test, consciousness is self-reported. That is, whether we realise it or not, how we recognise that humans are conscious, and there's no reason to expect machines would be any different. When they are people, they will tell us. We won't be able to stop them because that's what people do: they demand recognition.
I remember the long and detail oriented chapters on alien encounters in my capitalist theory textbooks.
It doesn’t take a textbook to figure out the capitalist plan would be to exploit these aliens as much as possible until every last dollar of value is squeezed out of them.
A few selections from The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith:
By the second of the rules annexed to the Act of Parliament which imposed what is now called the Old Subsidy, every merchant, whether English or alien, was allowed to draw back half that duty upon exportation; the English merchant, provided the exportation took place within twelve months; the alien, provided it took place within nine months.
As it is the interest of the freemen of a corporation to hinder the rest of the inhabitants from employing any workmen but themselves, so it is the interest of the merchants and manufacturers of every country to secure to themselves the monopoly of the home market. Hence in Great Britain, and in most other European countries, the extraordinary duties upon almost all goods imported by alien merchants.
You have the wrong community, this is crazy people Facebook material
There's plenty of writing about what will happen when we encounter aliens because any interstellar species is going to have already necessarily passed far beyond our existing social structures, and would looks like communists to any earthly observer.
This even led to some speculating that in the event of nuclear exchange/winter it might serve as a warning to the space comrades (if they exist) that it's time to intervene.
Anyway read Juan Posadas I guess.
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Step aside marx there's a new guy in town
Posad:
Why is it not answered?
- since they are by definition far beyond our technology, it may not be up to us
- since they are by definition sentient beings (op said “civilization”), then how are they any different. When we say “human” it’s just that it’s the only sentient being we’re familiar with. Anything applying to a “human” most likely applies to any sentient being. “Seizing the means of production” might be analogous to like Ethiopia seizing from the US. Good luck with that, see the first point
- statistically those aliens are almost certainly microbes, which have no opinion or rights. It’s all on us whether we preserve them as a unique or beneficial (to us) form of life. They’re no different than a coral reef
since they are by definition far beyond our technology,
There's always a scenario like "District 9", which involves a spaceship full of uneducated workers in a ship whose technology they don't understand.
Also the simple possibility that it's us that explores our way out to them, rather than the other way around
That makes A great movie plot but it seems awfully far fetched , even in the reality where aliens visit us
Sapient, not sentient. Sci-fi has co-opted the word, but sentient basically means able to feel emotions. There are plenty of sentient species right here at home. Sapient is the word sci-fi usually wants, there are no known sapient species aside from humans. Though some may argue that a couple other animals may qualify, it's a very fuzzy concept that is hard to identify with a being unable to communicate abstract concepts.
i would absolutely say there are other sapient species, we just don't like to think of them as such. Obviously a lot of aquatic mammals come to mind, but I think there's a very very good case to argue that cephalopods, elephants, some aquatic mammals, and some birds are sapient. Especially by sci-fi rules. I think there's sufficient evidence to show that elephants, dolphins, and maybe corvids or cephalopods would pass the trial of Commander Data and be considered intelligent and sapient life.
Thanks for the fascinating rabbit hole …. Popping my head back up: it seems like no. It actually reminds me a lot of the term “artificial intelligence” where every time it’s demonstrated, the definition changes. So the question really is whether we move the goalposts or whether we just define the intended meaning poorly.
To me it looks like both terms have an implied “like a human” that has not yet been met. When an animal achieves the definition of sapient, it’s the definition that’s wrong because accepted use implies “like a human”.
And of course the real answer in both cases is to use more precise terms. That’s where things get really interesting
We have no right to judge intelligence purely through our perception of intelligence, rather we must seek to broaden our understanding and view of intelligence and sapience. Yes there aren't any other species that are sapient like humans, but then there are very very few species that are like humans. Dolphins and other aquatic mammals are known to have complex social structures and languages, and are very evidently self aware and able to comprehend themselves and their existence. Are we to deny their sapience simply because they don't have economies of scale or what we perceive as civilization? I would argue that dolphins, elephants, whales, and some birds have formed (by our standards) rudimentary civilizations that are practical and necessary for their survival.
If we expand the concept, i would argue that similar things could be said about insects/bugs if we aggregate the intelligence. Ants have colonized every continent except for Antarctica. They have complex social structures and very clear markers of civilization. The only difference is that they function as a collective rather than as an individual. Are we to say that the Borg are not sapient because their civilization is predicated on the collective rather than the individual? The biggest thing I would have against calling ants sapient is that I am unsure of how self aware the collective is, but is that a necessity for sapience? To what degree is it necessary? Are we basing this off of a model of ourselves, of which only we fit into? Do we even have the right to demarcate what is and isn't intelligent, sentient, and/or sapient? I would posit no to a lot of these questions, especially given that I also think we are a lot less intelligent and sapient than we think we are. I don't believe a truly intelligent and sapient being would judge the intelligence and sapience of another being, but simply accept that it is as it is.
The Wikipedia article on animal consciousness has an interesting discussion
Of particular note as I sit here petting my dog, is the example of self-awareness in dogs. Historically dogs don’t seem to exhibit self-awareness, but we used a mirror test and dogs aren’t as visual. A sniff test, using their dominant sense, shows they are
since they are by definition far beyond our technology
How so? Aliens aren't going to suddenly come into existence and have super-human technology in that same instant.
If an alien can travel to meet us, and we have nowhere near the technology that we could travel to them, then yes they are far beyond our level of technology.
Since the question mentioned “civilization”, these are sapient beings, not just microbes or animals of some sort. While there’s still a chance of primitive life in our solar system, sapient life pretty much implies travel from outside the solar system and we can only do that in our fiction
we can only do that in our fiction
At present, yes. The hypothetical is in the future, possibly in one where we've developed interstellar travel and we can be the ones visiting the alien planet.
I mean, capitalism is silent on the matter as well.
I believe you'll find the documentary film "They Live" educational on the matter of space capitalism.
No I think it's pretty clear that capitalism will point guns at them, and we will either win and exploit their resources for ourselves or die.
This is scarcely believable