Java is poison for the mind
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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Why do people feel this way?
I'm genuinely curious as I'd think having a wider swathe of coding experience would be a good thing wouldn't it?
I don't work in fields that use coding expertise, I drive a forklift so I'm out of my wheel house when it comes to coding.
Not sure either. Best guesses are a combination of elitism, ignorance, preconceptions, groupthink, and insincere memeing.
Java used to lack many features to make the stuff you wanted it to do, so most Java programmers adapted design patterns to solve these problems.
Honestly, older versions of Java are utter garbage DX. The only reason it got so popular was because of aggressive enterprise marketing and it worked. How can a language lack such an essential feature as default parameters?
So, anyway after the great hype Java lost its marketshare, and developers were forced to learn another technologies. And of course, instead of looking for language-native way of solving problems, they just used same design patterns.
And thus MoveAdapterStrategyFactoryFactories were in places where simple lambda function would do the same thing, just not abstracted away three layers above. Obviously used once in the entire codebase.
Imo the only really good thing about Java was JVM, while it was not perfect, it actually delivered what it promised.
This is the only necessary comment in the entire thread, thanks for explaining
Java in a large way has been eclipsed by most other languages, and developers kind of have a way of making fun of old technologies, like a lot of the same jokes are made about PHP which is still very popular but outdated. In reality Java is also still incredibly popular and knowing it is certainly a benefit. It's just a collective joke.
Ruling Javascript and Python programmers out would be more sane imho. Java sucks, but at least its typed and doesn't implement weird semantics.
Had to work with a python programer on a small java project (in uni). I passed some (handcrafted) strings in an Optional to be explicit an first thing he does is check whether they are empty (sending on empty strings would not have been problematic). Also he had compilation errors on his branch that lasted over a week. What python does to someone.
I worked under a self-proclamed Python/JavaScript programmer, and part of the job involved doing rather advanced stuff in various other typed languages like c# and c++. It was hell. The code review were hell. For every little tiny weenie little things we had to go through "why coding c++ like it is python" is a very bad idea.
What is crazy about developers who exclusively work with scripting languages is that they have no conception of why general good practices exist, and they often will make up their own rules based on their own quirks. In my previous example, the developer in question was the author of a codebase that was in literal development hell, but he was adamant on not changing his ways. I'd definitely be wary of hiring someone who exclusively worked with scripting language, and sometime it is less work to train someone who is a blank slate rather than try to deprogram years of bad habits.
I'd change this slightly - the problem isn't exclusively working in scripting languages, but dynamically typed ones. There are people who write great code in Python (with typing) and in Typescript, and they usually can work well in other languages too. But people who don't type their programs are in my experience simply bad developers, the way you describe.
True that, this was pretty much the intended meaning of my reply but you worded it better.
Ah, good!
I feel like there is a fundamental difference between developers with a data-centric perspective, and a function-centric perspective.
The function-centric one is about adding functionality, and it's what developers start out with. You have functions that do things, and if requirements change or the thing should be re-used - no problem, I can quickly add a new toggle parameter here or bolt it on over there. I'll be done in 5 minutes, no problem!
Then, over time, you learn that functionality isn't that interesting or difficult. Instead, the hard parts are the ones concerning the flow of data through your application. What do I know about the shape of my data in this part of my application? What can I be sure of regarding invariants over there? This forces you to build modular software without interdependencies, because - in the end - you just build a library that has small adapters to the outside world.
I like scripting languages a lot, but it's way too easy to become "good" at that style of programming, and the better you get at it, the harder it will be to actually move forward to a data-centric perspective. It's a local maximum that can trap people, sometimes for their whole career. That's why I try to look at typing experience when evaluating candidates for positions.
That's true.
It's also true in other fields. For example, take far-eastern fighting skills:
Young students will try to hit someone, to beat someone up, to hit a target, to become "stronger".
Experienced teachers, however, don't really care about hitting a target. It's all about the posture. How you stand. How you carry out your movements.
ability to bring up hardware
In conversation?
You need to raise it suckling at your teet until you send it off to college.
Do you have a link to this job posting? That’s exactly me. Not a joke.
Looks like the company is https://www.winterwinds.io/, but they do not appear to have any open job listings at the moment. I assume this is an older screenshot.
Initiative?
Did NOT expect to see Rust mentioned. Happy it's getting recognized.
Isnt there Rust in the linux kernel now? Would be kinda crazy if it didnt get noticed by now...
Rust is the Celeste of programming languages.
Whos celeste?
Celeste is a critically acclaimed indie game. It became a meme to call it a "hidden gem" because for a while it was being brought up constantly on various forums as some underrated game, even though it was quite well-known and highly rated.
The only Celeste I know is a difficult video game where I always get stuck when playing
Real-time operating system implies the existence of a turn-based operating system.
Well, that's... not wrong. The time-sharing OSes take turns assigning resources too tasks.
Maybe they want to avoid java coding patterns. FactoryFactoryGenerator kind of stuff. Maybe they want to teach their own java coding patterns and want someone coming in with a blank slate so they don't have to unlearn habits. Maybe they're tired of diploma mill programmers applying and are using this as a resume filter tripwire.
Definitely the first. I work in ML, and I find for instance people with background mainly in c# to be the least fit for my field, particularly if they have long experience. So I understand this kind of requests
Definitely. Horror story time.
We had an outside contractor bring us some code once that was thousands of lines of Python to do a very simple job. I was perplexed. I dove in to figure out what the problem was, and somehow I was looking at the most Java-esque Python code I could imagine. What’s worse is that he implemented his own “Java style” property getters and setters for all the Python classes, which obviously aren’t needed because you can simply access properties directly. In the end I took an 80 line snippet of his code (which actually did the work we needed), swapped out all the getters and setters, and deleted all the rest.
Did you pay by the SLOC?
This is pretty common with outside contractors.
We just come in, say we'll pay them x dollars and they give us code that passes the test. But that code will not at all align with any prior patterns.
I absolutely know I'm guilty of it when I do freelancing. Sorry.
You can always tell when someone's been a career contractor because they never adhere to any of the established patterns/styles in the codebase.
I disagree. Good career contractors should learn to write in the code style of the project. And the real pros do.
That's not to say that python coding habits are the best either -- certainly they're terrible when translating outside of python (most of the time). And even within python, someone who is used to with only the base modules will write it differently than writing PyQt and still completely different than someone doing numpy code... because the styles of coding of the underlying system change your coding mode. Like, my variables are all CamelCase when doing user interfaces with Qt because it makes sense there, stylistically.
It might be to see who is reading the posting and tailoring their reply. Kinda like a "no green M&Ms" rider.