To all of these enlightened centrists in the comments: Just make sure to get down off the fence before the barbed wire goes up.
this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2024
522 points (84.9% liked)
Progressive Politics
1019 readers
199 users here now
Welcome to Progressive Politics! A place for news updates and political discussion from a left perspective. Conservatives and centrists are welcome just try and keep it civil :)
(Sidebar still a work in progress post recommendations if you have them such as reading lists)
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
We are already at the point of campus grounds fenced up against protesting at multiple places,
Nazi germany had grocery stores. We won’t notice democracy ending.
Neoliberalism in the early 90s pulled in a few people from the Republican party, cost a shit ton of voters who had been faithfully voting D for their whole lives, and despite never really pulling anymore voters than that initial wave, the DNC still wants to continue the march to Reagan era trickle down economics hoping they can guilt trip voters because Republicans have gone absolutely insane on social issues to differentiate.
Meanwhile a candidate with an actual "centrist" economic policy isn't something we've been able to vote for in a generation, let alone someone that would be described as "leftwing" in any other 1st world country. Because the billionaires donate to both parties to ensure they always win.
The only difference were allowed to have these days is social issues, and apparently it's so bad now that genocide is one of the things the American public isn't allowed to have a day in anymore.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Look, centrism is a real thing. There are people who really do like to analyze each and every problem from a more or less unbiased viewpoint and form strong opinions without the influence of ideology, while being ready for a compromise. Anyone who was serious about being a centrist I ever talked to defined their ideology this way.
With that being said there also are right-wingers who like to masquerade as centrist or sometimes moderate left just so they can use their supposed position to more effectively plant their ideas and try and normalize them.
But the thing I'm sick and tired of is when people try and pretend that this is true for every centrist, while ignoring the real problem that there are radical elements that try to masquerade as moderate ones and in doing so are polarizing and actively destroying our society.
Being centrist in America is just being right wing then generally. America is very skewed to the right globally
Yeah, it comes a lot from non-Americans on here, then the Americans get upset. The truth is, the Republican party is way further right that most right-wing parties across other western nations. The Democratic is centrist, though has only recently steered away from being a ight-wing party themselves, again, compared to other countries.
The NY Times does a summary of it using data from the Manifesto Project. So, when that's your environment for the last few decades, it's hard to notice that a "centrist" from other countries is very likely to share the same and more left ideals than much of the US left-wing.
And the use of the spectrum by Americans is insane as well. It's so misunderstood and emotional more than anything else. The major criticisms of the left-right spectrum are exactly what Americans do with it and what we're seeing in comments here. The lines are drawn, the sides are made, they don't necessarily watch the media, but all of their political consumption is shaped by it and it trickles into their views without realising or intending. This leads to them using the wrong terms for things, explaining traditionally right-wing ideals as if they're left, and no understanding that a person—and most people—hold both left and right ideas on things. You could package up something right or left with an opposing label on it, and so many would eat it up, because "That's what I am." It seems so clear from outside the bubble, but not in there. In there it's its own beast.
They should be pissed that they've come to behave like this, but they don't realise.
load more comments
(1 replies)
This view only works in a world where the right and left have a common view of reality and a common agreement on what the outcome should be, they just disagree on how to get there.
Which is why being centre-left or centre-right makes logical sense, since the positions and policies within those halves are consistent with their perception of reality and desired outcomes. And being unbiased about which position to pick within those ideologies is perfectly reasonable.
But being a centrist between the left and right doesn't make sense, as the view of reality and goals is entirely distinct. There's no middle ground between "cutting social services for the poor because you believe poor people deserve to be poor, and that hierarchical societies are inherently right", and that "we should increase social spending to help those that are less fortunate because an equal society is inherently just".
load more comments
(2 replies)
I'm definitely center. There's a ton of stuff I disagree with the majority of Lemmy on. (At least my home instance .world). That's because reality is nuanced, not all progressive politics work, or left politicians good.
But I'm not stupid, both sides clearly are not the same. Both bad in unique ways (from an American perspective that is) but one side is so much worse than the other to such a extreme degree that most of their politicians and even to a smaller degree their followers are just not worth the time of day.
I wish we lived in a world where we could all get along and have differing ideas without everyone getting all mad. Sadly we don't. So I play the line, that way my family can hopefully get the best outcome. It's all I can do.
The problem with you is Center in America is right wing everywhere else, so you aren't doing the good you think you are doing
load more comments
(5 replies)
I feel the same. I considered myself just left of center but if the political compass site is to be believed im about halfway from center to the max extreme for both econimic left and social libertarianism. So I guess im fairly over but I still wonder if that site is still effected by current days because I feel like back in the 70's so much was considered more of a central view.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Reality is nuances and America is big. Like REALLY big. I don't think a lot of the policies that are important to big cities make as much sense in rural areas and vice versa.
There are big pictures issues, like women's rights, gay rights, and trans rights that need to be protected across the country.
Then there are gun control policies that don't make a lot of sense in towns of 300 people but seem like common sense in cities with millions of people.
Personally, I believe we need to work on cutting out the people and saboteurs who are willfully, vehemently, and incessantly trying to divide us. Those that are doing their damnedest to try and make each other the enemy.
Hard agree.
As someone that grew up most of my life in a tiny, rural Ohio area. There are so many strange laws that extend from the cities, many of which can outright just be bad for the area.
Policy wise, local democrats are rarely liked and seen as weak in rural areas, which in my experience is usually correct, unfortunately. The Republicans are always money grabbers but generally get things done.
Frankly the system sucks.
Honestly, it's wild when I get into a policy debate and from someone's stance I can tell whether they live in a city, in the country, in suburbs, or whatever. Its hard to argue policy when people refuse to acknowledge that there are other parts of the country that aren't like the neighborhood they live in.
From my understanding, which I admit could be flawed, that is why there is the separation of federal, state, and local government.
Federal deals with the big shit across the country but doesn't get caught up in the small shit that only applies to Montana. It also acts as the check and balance to state laws to prevent them from being too egregious.
load more comments
(3 replies)
The most interesting one here is equating fascists with antifascists because I feel like I kind of stray into that at times when antifascists get violent with fascists and punch a nazi protester or something. On the one hand, shouldn't we take the high road and practice non-violence, but on the other hand, nazis would have no problem killing the other side if they had control. It gets into the whole paradox of tolerance and how the "high road" just may not be possible with some people. Maybe punching nazis is the correct response?
I consider myself left-wing on most things, but there does seem to be an almost reflexive tendency on the left to try to shut down any criticism by assuming the worst in people whenever somebody says something even slightly critical or against the prevailing doctrine. If you don't sing the highest praises of some groups everytime and assume that they can never do wrong, you're automatically assumed to be an extreme right-wing/nazi/incel/homophobe/transphobe. You're either completely perfect or you're scum.
Part of it might be from dealing with right-wing propaganda campaigns online for the past 10 years or so, where you can't even have coherent arguments with right-wingers anymore, it's just not even worth your time to argue with them because they're ignoring logic anyways and they're not arguing in good faith, there's just no point most of the time.
I’ve been following antifascist reporting for a while now, and it always bothers me when people will just stop supporting antifascists as soon as a nazi gets punched. It almost feels like they think the worst part of fascism is violence, not the mixture of everything else while using violence to enforce it. I’m personally all for punching nazis, preferably in self defense, though it’s not the best tactic (humiliation works better with fascists, bring back vegan milkshakes).
Some people are just so scared of violence and love to put themselves on a pedestal for being better than that, while almost always being fully isolated from the fascists while having no skin in the game.
I also fucking despise the online left. I’m an anarchist, and have been a socialist for pretty much my whole political life. But the online left will chew you up and spit you out for a single mistake. If you end up in some areas it’s pure dogma, and you will get angry replies for hours on end for not being the same politically.
I swear, the online left would rather do nothing and remain virtuous rather than go outside, fuck up, and learn from their mistakes while actually bringing their politics into the real world.
Pacifism works until it doesn't.
At some point, talking unfortunately just isn't enough. There is a point where more direct action is needed. It's why we had to have a war with Nazi Germany.
If we always go non-violent then it lets those who are willing to be violent to take advantage of us and have their way. I'll take small violences like punching Nazis over big violences like war any day.
load more comments
(1 replies)
When you come across an actual fascist you need to cut that shit out like cancer. Back in the day, when I was young, fascists of multiple flavors, and other WP/ethno state, groups would attach themselves to music scenes I was interested in. So they would show up to venues for those scenes. They would initially just chill, and be cordial, and if they didn't get forced out, they would start coming more often, and bringing more of their fascist friends. This leads to the venue being a nazi hang-out. Everyone else sees that they are there, no one is forcing them out, and they stop showing up, because they don't want to hang in the same space as these shit people.
So when they did show up, they got forced out, often with violence. It works. After being beat up a few times, they move on. Eventually they end up in their own place, and everyone knows it is the nazi club, and avoids it. This isn't to say they didn't make pests of themselves beyond this, but they didn't come around as often, and when they did they made it clear they were there to start fights. Start fights... or gather in their trucks/vans, drive down into the city, and wait around outside of gay venues for a lone gay person, then drive up to them, jump out and attack them.
Their ideology requires violence in the end. So they should be treated as an inevitable source of violence. There is no place for paradoxical tolerance.
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(9 replies)
I'm not from the US but I would describe myself a a left leaning centrist. The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
If you map the parties based on left/right and progressive/conservative my vote is definitely center left and high progressive.
The US has a political system that sucks, where you only have 2 real options. A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
load more comments
(3 replies)
Ewww no. Fuck balance. Go hard when you can, mitigate losses when you can't.
load more comments
(1 replies)
I'm not left or right I'm a secret third thing (Our current system is a complete joke and I'm plagued with dread about my inability to enact meaningful change, I still vote and stuff, but I don't feel like I'm having much of an effect)
Don't try to put me into one of your boxes please.
A 2 party system is a bad idea.
I have also seen a lot of people who line up squarely in the middle of moderate Democrats on every issue, but don't like to be associated with the inexperienced college kid stereotype.
Oh, neat. Propaganda done in the style of Far right facebook boomer humor! Love seeing Lemmy constantly generalize and misrepresent people.
I mean, damn, I consider myself a centrist but that basically means “not a worthless shitheel asshole traitor in the bag for russia and against doing anything for the American people”. I think gummint should GTFO peoples lives (so fuck off with your shit about gay people and religion and abortion) and pay its fucking bills (so fuck off with your tax cuts and spending). And it’s fucking absolutely asinine that any mentally defective degenerate can get a goddamn semiautomatic weapon, are you fucking nuts?
So a Manchin Democrat?
No. I do not associate with either party, but vote strictly D because I’m not fucking insane. 20 years ago I could have considered voting for an exceptional R, but fuck all that. I think I’ve always been centrist, nowadays center left, but everything has shifted so far right that I couldn’t possibly associate with the republican traitor filth.
I voted Bernie in the 2020 primary.
I don't mean to offend. But I see you as a Democrat because the values you hold most-important land you in one party over another. In your case, 100% of the time. It doesn't mean that you have allegiance to the party or that your views match the party 100%.
Some people are single issue voters who ONLY care about 1 issue and identify politically from that. In the most extreme, a lot of religious folks literally don't care how evil their candidate is as long as they oppose abortion.
BTW, I voted for Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries.
I take no offense. I just do not ally myself with the party of Biden, who supports Israeli tyranny. I’m Jewish, BTW.
Haha some people can't helo trying to categorise you
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
What is the word… I used to hear it all the time but haven’t really heard it much these days. Oh what is that word.
Nuance.
This was me before covid, then I got radicalized to the left.
view more: next ›