It's June in Saudi Arabia. I'm surprised it's not way higher than that every time.
this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2024
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Actually it's June here too, what a coincidence!
I don't see any references or sources at all in the page, and I couldn't find other news sites with comparable numbers, I call bullshit.
it was reported that there was 41 jordanians who died trying to get to mecca without permits and they slept outside in the sun so that part was true but inflated number, the Egyptians thing is just a lie.
You can also read the AP or AFP reports, which are easily accessible.
What's wrong with you?
Why Egyptians? Is there a special reason that singled this group out for some reason?
I read somewhere that people who fork over money for a special visa to Saudis Arabia have access to air conditioned stations along the way. Most likely the Egyptians are doing it unofficially, which is likely easier to get away being in the general region already.
Somewhere? You mean IN this very article.
I hadn't read this exact article but still commented because I've read about the same events in other publications.
Because Egypt and Jordan reported their numbers.
What is a pilgrimage without risk and suffering.
A small price to pay to worship a pedophile.
The blatant Islamophobia is what I really missed from Reddit. Thank you for filling that hole
According to traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad,[94][95][96][97] with the marriage being consummated when she reached the age of nine or ten years old whilst she still played with dolls.[98][b] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty."[106] Beginning in the early twentieth century, Christian polemicists and orientalists attacked what they deemed to be Muhammad's deviant sexuality, for having married an underage[c] girl; acute condemnations came from the likes of Harvey Newcomb and David Samuel Margoliouth while others were mild, choosing to explain how the "heat of tropics" made "girls of Arabia" mature at an early age.[108][114] While most Muslims defended the traditionally accepted age of Aisha with vigor emphasizing on cultural relativism, the political dimensions of the marriage, Aisha's "exceptional qualities" etc., some — Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad in Egypt and others[d] — chose to re-calculate the age and fix it at late adolescence as a tool of social reform in their homelands or even, mere pandering to different audiences.[108][115][e]
In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad
Don't get me started on the current Muslim practices...
Before you start spazzing... this aint Islam specific as we can see Catholic church is notorious pedo org too.
With that being said, I am sorry bad facts hurts your feelz dear.
The pelgrimage to Mekka where Muslims worship uuuuuhhhhh....
Mohammed! Their God!
Which uhhhh
frantically pastes generic poorly researched Wikipedia article full of contradictions
Pedophile!
Don't look up the history of anyone from before the 20th century when these supposed Christians suddenly reached enlightenment. The inclusion of Christians is especially weird since they always pushed for younger ages of marriage than Muslims in the middle ages. Back then the Muslims were supposedly prudes.
Wonder why everyone didn't wait until they were 35 to get married in a time where the average life expectancy was 31 years.
If my life expectancy drops I don't think it's going to suddenlyb make me stick my dong into a 9 year old
Presentism is the fallacy you are looking for.
Humans have even changed their bodies since the middle ages. Menstrual periods are later. Maturity goes slower. People don't die in 30 years.
Children having their parents die when they are 10 and get married at 20. Or children getting married at 10 and having their parents die at 20. All great choices which we don't have to make and can moral high ground about.
I could ask why you think dating an 18 year old is fine but a 17 year old is not. Because modern research suggests the brain only finishes development at 25. But of course our sense of "morals" is solely based on arbitrary laws in < present time > in < present location >.
Ah, the Great Cascade of excusing pedophilia
~~It didn't happen~~
~~Her age was 'unclear'~~
Her 9-year-old body was 'ready for it' <-- You are here
He had to plow her, as her parents could die any day <-- Moving here
Why would there be a problem with a 50-year old 'dating' a 9-year old <-- Nice to see that thrown in
She loved him
She was begging for it
Furthermore, your excuses just confirm Sunzu's allegation that 'modern' Muslims have not 'moved on' from these practices - they use them to excuse legalizing and enabling pedophilia today. Muhammad set the bar for them. And he set it very, very low.
the history of anyone before the 20th century
Does it count when talking about prophets, deities, gods and such? Weren't they meant to be perfect?
I don't recall the possibility of god and his messangers being imperfect, in any century.
We humans, we are flawed and have societies whose notions are not static because we evolve. God can't afford the excuse of "errors of the past, I evolved"
You are ascribing evolution to a society of warmongers committing Genocide on children in Palestine. A society addicted more to wealth than human suffering trying to lecture people on what correct morals are.
A society with an abundance of food where people are starving.
I would reconsider how correct the Wests morals are.
I didn't even specify any religion. I just said that god, any god, by definition, can't evolve.
This ain't Hercules adventures where gods are just sky humans with perks. Mainstream gods (&co) are all perfect in their "mysterious ways".
As such, if a prophet was into pedophilia, then either pedophilia is right (which I personally find odd... but them I'm merely human...) or that prophet wasn't exactly the most exemplary lad.
Whatever the case, people's lives are worth of dignity, be it Palestinians, Israelis, South Africans or Santa. That's not what I was arguing against at all. We can defend people while, at the same time, pointing the finger out at some bullshit they do.
The west is also full of bullshit. So what? We can also point the finger at that. Be my guest. I never said that we were perfect.
The discussion is so shunned in Western society that it is well understood one should always repeat your opinion in public and never question it.
I would once again ask why teenagers having sex is regarded as totally normal as long as long as the person they are having sex with is not 18 yet.
If teenagers truly should not be subject to sexual experiences because they are not ready then surely this would not be normal. Or is it okay if a victim performs the deed?
That's not the case in my western country but sure, hit that scarecrow. I personally know underage people dating 25-ish people.
What is frowned upon is people in completely different levels of maturity creating a tremendous imbalance, and usually abuse. DiCaprio dating teens is not a "we stand on an equal footing and love each other" kind of thing, is a "I'm famous and will use this fact to mess with teenagers".
An elderly hardly has a healthy relationship with a teenager, and this is particularly true for arranged marriages.
This western civilization thing of your already had that in the past. We stopped doing that rather recently as we figured it creates more trouble than not. Let's not pretend that "western" is some sort of axiom that just appeared and not the product of the evolution of some society. Just like eastern societies have such evolutions in some aspects. For example some eastern civilisations figured that clean spaces are better and so they try real hard to try to keep them that way. Of course you're free to argue that this cleanliness is not needed so it is a purely subjective thing of these societies and not necessarily better, but sociologists night disagree.
As for "ok if the victim preforms the deed", that's irrelevant. The same criteria applies. Promoting healthier relationships promotes a healthier society. If some 14/yo teenager is obsessed with dating way older men for whatever reason, chances are people are going to judge it, legal or not, no matter the society.
Society had no issues with this for the past millenia. This new social construct of adulthood and finding it weird is far more recent. Mohammed's first wife was 41 when he was 25. Age differences at the time were far more usual.
Granted that our culture now changes so fast that it would mean someone that grew up with Madonna and someone that grows up with Skibidi toilet would get together. The generational cultural gaps are far greater than in the past. But this is overcome when people spend time together.
The only real reason that people can use is that a younger person can be easier to manipulate. Which holds an element of truth but the question remains at what age we allow a person full control over their actions. Currently this is 18. Yet research suggests the brain is only fully matured at 25. So will the new age be 25?
The Leonardo DiCaprio example is a classic one. Most people that say they would never act similar to Dicaprio will do so once they are actually presented with the option. It is moral highgrounding purely based on never having been presented with the option.
Everyone considers stealing wrong. Everyone condemns big fat pigs robbing millions from the financial system wrong. If I had to place a bet, most people would of they had the chance. The fact people are hypocritical doesn't mean it is not condemnable. DiCaprio is a piece of shit in a lot of people's mind, just not in the judicial system.
No shit that a lot of middle-aged or maybe elderly man would enjoy 16 year old teasing them. Not so much for woman but if I had to bet it would happen as well. Our sex drive plays a lot here. Back in the we're animals in nature thingy, putting dicks into young women was almost always a "good thing"; propagating genes and stuff. Just so happens that we're trying not to behave like wild beasts anymore.
The brain would ideally be fully matured before one is to take life-long decisions, however 25 years is an awful lot of time. My armchair sociologist says that people would not tolerate that for the same reason people do not tolerate expecting for their kids to be 25 before allowing them to cross the road by themselves. Maturity is not a linear thing. At the age of 5 you'll try to kill yourself every now and then. At the age of 10 you barely do that. 18 is an arbitrary line, yes, because it is believed that most people at that age are able to figure life long decisions well-enough. People still get some sparks of development after 18, but it is nowhere compared to the 5-10 or the 10-15.
You state that age differences at the time were far more common. Well, at the time most marriages were arranged and considered plenty of things above the wellbeing of the brides.
In any case, we're working around my key argument. We're all silly animals, but god and it's prophets are supposed to be perfect. You can point a finger at them for that. Yes, fuck Francis. That guy is a piece of shit as well and points fairly well at the bullshit that Christianity is. This is not a anti-muslim rant; it is a "can we condemn condemnable people that were supposed to know what they were doing as they were 'perfect'?"
You are correct in your assessment of perfection. But the question is what is perfect morality. And mostly one of where to draw the line. The equation with stealing and murder is questionable as that has been a moral wrong through all of humanity. Whereas this debate is mostly one of the last 100 years. In the past this objective morality had never existed thus I question whether it is as objective as you make it seem. When you go a few generations back you'll usually find your great-great grandfather was a 25 year old dude that married as 13-15 year old.
Flipping to the modern age I knew a 19 year old guy that was ashamed of dating a 17 year old because he felt other people thought there was too big of an age gap. A mere two year difference. The "objective morality" on this subject really appears to be "whatever everyone else thinks about it". Even funnier is that a 60 year old dating a 30 year old is suddenly becoming predatory too. The last 10-20 years people are starting to condemn two "mature adults" with a large age gap for having a relationship. DiCaprio is a perfect example of this. He violates no laws nor "morals" but somehow is wrong.
The brain would ideally be fully matured before one is to take life-long decisions, however 25 years is an awful lot of time.
If were morally consistent we would acknowledge that if the brain is "fully matured" at 25 that the age of consent would be 25...But as that is currently not the societal norm we see no reason to accept this. If society had already changed into this logic I am quite sure you would adhere to it as well. Especially seeing that there would now be a "scientific reasoning" behind it. And it would be even more difficult to convince you because now I would have to argue with science. Yet we stick to this very arbitrary number of 18. Even you are saying 18 is okay and 16 is weird. I cannot comprehend this. Make it 25.
Just so happens that we’re trying not to behave like wild beasts anymore.
The question of consent is a very emphasized one that was introduced back then. Before the prophet consent was an arbitrary cause. Women were regarded as property at that time. Suddenly men had to actually appeal to a woman to marry her. Even in modern day if a woman does not wish to get married at a young age there is absolutely no reason for her to do so. The legal permissible age refers to the age at which a woman gets control to decide. It does not force her to get married. It only presents her with the right to do so.
We still condone sexual intercourse between teenagers and accept that when they reach puberty some have a desire to become sexually active. We have not mitigated this in fact we promote safe sex in schools and say experimenting is totally fine. We have only restricted it to other "children". We made the age gap a defining factor in what we deem okay, and don't say that "children" are being "raped" by other "children". Once again, I can't find moral consistency in this. If the brain's finished age is 25 why do we condone a 17 and 15 year old, but not a 19 and 17 year old? And now even between "adults" this age gap is coming into play.
There appears to be no coherent argument. Everything that is deemed okay is based on current traditions and the "science" is ignored.
from your comment it seems like you think they deserved to die, and immediately copy pasted your wall of text when someone accused you of racism. not a good look i must say.
I was mocking the religious practice to honor a pedophile that resulted in people dying. I was accused of being wrong, I provided citation to support my position.
Nice try tho :)
Okay setting aside the tons of other problems with this statement, "worship" him? Really?
Not following the point you are trying to make.
Muslims do not worship Muhammed, at all. Shia do have a weird obsession with his family that can reach worship according to my knowledge as a Sunni Muslim, but no serious sect of Islam worships Muhammed. "We don't worship our prophet, unlike what the Christians did to Jesus" is an important part of Islamic identity.
To an outsider it does feel a lot like worship. But I guess that'd require him to be viewed as a deity to be correct
It is forbidden for Muslims to worship any prophet or anything that outside of God. That would be idolatry.
It is forbidden for Christians to kill. However...
Is it the fault of Christianity when a Christian does not abide by its rules?
They should build a giant enclosure over the Kaaba so it can be air conditioned. Or at the very least put in those mister-fan combos all over the place that are in amusement parks.
Allah works in mysterious ways.
Religion murdered these people.
When a skydiver died skydiving, do you really blame the pilot of the airplane that got him up there? These are adults who choose to believe in fairytales
The Hajj has been taking place over 1000 years. Hyper-aggro heatwaves in June is a new thing however. It wasn't religion, it was climate change.
Yeah that would be a good story and support some preconceived notions but Mecca has always been incredibly hot, you can't just rewrite history to suit the message you want to send.
Precisely. Mecca has always been incredibly hot and yet pilgrims have not been dropping like flies. Ostensibly because over the centuries certain common religious/pilgrimage practices have helped them cope with the heat. But when climate change moves the needle to 11, those centuries old religious/pilgrimage practices no longer work to protect people.
That is the message I'm trying to send; what's yours?
Mecca has always been incredibly hot
What even is the difference between 40°C and 50°C? They're both "incredibly hot" aren't they? Quit your complaining.
They all know the consequences and they think God will protect them from whatever.. Yeah, religion killed them.
How could Israel do this??????
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion. Many hundreds or thousands of people die each year doing the pilgrimage, often times from crowd crushes, literally getting squished to death because there are so many people, or just exhaustion.
There are only a few short video clips on YouTube of the massive crowds and it is sort of unnerving seeing that many people in a moving crowd. Super weird what religion makes people do.
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
I do hope they find a way to make it safer because people will never stop doing it, but the whole concept just seems absurd to me.
Such senseless loss of life in the name of religion.
If they'd died in the Saudi heat to a secular activity - at an F1 race event or inside a poorly A/C'd movie theater or trapped on an overheated bus - would that have been better?
There is also this weird video which talks about how they plan to revolutionize the hajj to make it safer and accessible to more people - using technology in a weird blend of old world meets new.
So much of the modern Saudi state sees the Hajj as little more than a massive tourist attraction. They're heavily invested in Disney-fying the experience, such that the maximal number of high-paying visitors can slide through the building frictionlessly.
Which is a shame, because the Hajj as a cultural event was originally intended as this class-agnostic unifying practice social event. You aren't supposed to visit these holy sites encapsulated into these exclusive expensive little bubbles. You're intended to mingle with people from the rest of the world and revel in a certain shared experience common to the faith the world over.
What we're seeing isn't some toxic religious ideology that Saudi administrators need to cleanse for mass consumption. Instead, we're seeing a commercialization and stratification of ideology, by which elites get a bespoke Hajj experience and Saudi officials get to operate as gatekeepers of tradition at some astronomical markup.
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