So you support the displacement of the people of israel?
- Where to?
- Which people? Anyone who is an Israeli citizen?
this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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Whatever country they come from or to new palestine if that's not possible.
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Yes, all Israelis
- Hang on, don't stop. Which countries? And by new palastine do you mean the one controlled by Hamas who have kill all jews and christians in their charter? So basically just kill everyone who is currently living in Israel?
- So all the christian and muslim arabs who are Israeli citizens too. Right? You wouldn't want to come off as a racist impliying only jews should be displaced would you?
1.The countries they came from. They are Jewish settlers. I.e they came from other countries to settle I'm palestianian land. So they should return to the (mostly European) countries they came from. Or they can join they can emigrate elsewhere if they don't feel safe lying in the bed they made with how they treated Palestinians.
Just like any other decolonisation effort, the colonisers need to leave or they can stay and try and integrate or face retribution for their colonisation. Are you going to feel bad for British colonisers that got caught and displaced during revolutions in the BE?
- Yes obviously, hence why I spoke about Israel and not about Jews. Its a decolonisation effort, so they either leave to their country of origin, emmegrate elsewhere or becomes citizens of a decolonisation Palestine. You trying to imply I'm being antisemitic just shows you don't actually care about the issue and are just using usual tactics to try and win an argument on the internet.
Maybe you're not doing the math on the age of the average Israeli person. There's been more than enough time since the creation of that country for multiple generations to be born there. They don't have some other country to go home to, because that is their home.
If they can't return to the country of their or their parents origin, then they need to go through the process of becoming legal citizens of Palestine.
Having kids their does not entitle them to the land they were born on. Russia has occupied crimea for 10 years now, there will be thousands of Russians that were born there. Does that mean Crimea belongs to Russia? Does that mean Ukraine calling for its historic borders to be recognised is genocide?
You do know that the ancestors of many Israelis are native to that area, yes? Why do they have less rights to the land and their culture than the other groups who live there?
Other than the few that lived their during ottoman rule the vast vast majority of Jews immigrated after the mandate. So the only way they have ancestors that are native is if you go back some 2,500+ years.
And if we want to do that than anyone can trace there ancestors back to Africa and you can excuse European colonialism in Africa the same way you are excusing Jewish colonialism.
The vast majority of Sabra have ancestors who fled and were exiled from Muslim countries in the region. More than half of the Jews living there are Mizrahi, many have ancestors who are native to the area. An additional 20 % of Israeli are Arabs who have ancestors in the diverse ethnic groups who populated the area, long before the land was separated into Israel and Palestine.
The separation between Israel, Westbank and Gaza is more a religious than an ethnic one. Since Gaza and Westbank want a pure Muslim state. But original the are la wasn't pure Muslim. The ongoing conflict between the Muslim and non-Muslims groups in the area predates the separation and was one of the factors which led to the founding of Israel.
The idea of European colonizers is just propaganda used to paint a black and white image of the situation.
The majority of people living in Israel are not Europeans. Perhaps read something else than just propaganda for a change.
What do you suggest gay and queer people, muslims and women who want humans rights are supposed to do?
You know, when you advantage a hypothetical displacement over an ongoing one, the implicit argument is that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. You're asking: wouldn't it be horrible for the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?
If you think it's unfair to displace one oppressed people in favor of another, then yea, I agree.
And the slogan is “Palestine will be free”. It isn’t that Israelis will be exiled or some shit. It is a call for liberation of all people.
You mean like women and minorities are "free" in Palestine?
Pink washing doesn’t really work when the state you are staning for doesn’t allow interfaith or gay marriages to be performed in country.
At least, you know, they allow people to be gay or have another religion.
It's interesting how so many people stan for a place like Gaza and the Westbank. And even call for Israel to be abolished and everyone become a part of a new country called "Palestine" that murders gay people and openly hates people of other ethnicities and religions.
It does seem to me like these people either don't know much about the culture and history there, or they don't care. Which doesn't fit to the overall virtue signalling to pretend to be on the side of justice.
I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die because Jihadists are using their own people as human shields. There have been over 7 times where the Palestinian people have had a chance to establish an actual state. They refused each and every time. So I'm struggling to see a parallel between what Israel is doing (defending its people) vs what you are suggesting.
I think it's unfair to expect a people to just belly up and die
This makes it sound like Israel's existence depends on the Palestinian people NOT being free
The Palestinian people have had many many options to accept a two state solution and "be free". But they will never be free because their leaders only want the distruction of Israel and death of all jews. And, since the people and the rest of the world are intent on critisizing only Israel and making no moves towards freeing the Palestinian people from Hamas, they will NOT be free.
I'm Palestinian, grew up in a Palestinian family, went to lots of protests, "Kill all Jews" is not something people say out or appreciate. The problem is with Zionists, not Jew.
That being said, totally legal to march in Israel and chant "Death to all Arabs"
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From the River to the Sea does not necessarily insinuate that all Israelis will be displaced, killed, etc.
At minimum, the Israeli state should be abolished. I think first generation settlers who aren't refugees and can return to their home country should probably leave.
Please go on. Where should the jews go? Which countries in the world would gladly accept 7 million jews? And by abolishing the Israel state I assume you are a big supporter of Sharia law. So no women rights, all LGBT people should be put to death, etc...
Did I say they all had to leave?
So only the gay and queer people, non-muslims and women who want human rights should leave?
This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
them: "As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?"
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
Don't leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
My take is very simple:
-are they actively targeting civilians? If yes then bad:
-Israeli government- yes, then bad.
-Hamas- yes, then bad.
-are they following what is recognised as international law (namely the 1993 Oslo agreements):
-Israeli government- while they formally recognise Palestine as a state, they have consistently undermined the Palestinian authority and occupied much of the West Bank without a plan for either self governance or leaving, settling parts of the West Bank aggressively, therefore bad.
-Hamas- does not recognise Israel in any way and openly calls for its destruction, therefore bad.
I think the only reason Israel should exist today is that people already live there and it would be a mistake to force them out and create more displacement. That being said, Israel, a supremacist ethnostate, should never have had the right to exist... You shouldn't exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist. I still have hope that some reasonable Israelis will turn this all around, and Israel will stop being a genocidal mission.
You shouldn't exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist.
Just for curiosity, are you American?
Because you literally just described America.
No. You'll be shocked, I'm Palestinian.
For that you know awfully little about the history of the area. Or you just love propaganda.
Yeah I fucking love all that "propaganda" from HRW and the UN.
The UN, which includes the HRW, have a historic bias against Israel that is an ongoing topic. They admitted so themselves in the past and have been called again and again to justify their strong bias that shows, among other things, in the fact they find the majority of all human rights offenses in Israel.
The focus on Israel from the UN stems form the fact that the majority of it's members states are anti-democratic and their council is dominated by oil states and muslim states who see Israel as a thorn into their side.
While I wouldn't call everything from the UN as propaganda, they are definitely not a neutral source for information.
The country Israel was founded by people who are native to the land. Perhaps read up on the history of the area, because what you are writing is factually incorrect.
There was no country before and the area was populated by multiple different groups of people. Those people wanted to found countries in the area. There is war(s) regarding where the borders of these countries should be.
That's how almost every country in the world came into place. The only difference here is that it is taking place in a time when the whole world is watching in real time and people are much more globally mobile.
I know it's much easier and comfortable to paint a black and white picture of the situation, but it is just false...
If they were native to the land, how do you explain Deir Yasdin or the Nakba?
??? What does that have to do with the fact that Israel is a country founded for people who are native to the land?
If they are native to the land, why did they have to massacre (Deir Yassin) and ethnically cleanse (the Nakba) the other natives? 🤔
I'm asking because Deir Yassin is the massacre that eventually convinced my grandmother's family to leave their hometown and become refugees in Jordan, especially after the men in the village tried to fight off these "natives to the land" because they were attacking and killing everyone. Deir Yassin convinced Palestinians that they couldn't trust these "natives", since they don't stick to their treaties, and go around marauding.
Jews were killed and oppressed in the area already thousands of years ago. How is that possible if they are not natives to the land?
For example during the Levant conquest or the regular and ongoing conflicts between Arabs and Jews in the area when it was still Transjordan? These conflicts are so fucking old they are mentioned in the Koran.
It's nonsensical to try and claim Jews aren't native there.
Please answer my question first. If they were natives to the land, why did they have to commit massacres and ethnic cleansing against the other natives of the land?
For the same reason why people do that in every country to each other. Religion, incompatible cultural values, ideologies that go against other people, ... It's sadly something people do and have done everywhere in some way or another.
In Transjordan and the greater area between Northern Africa and Asia there were countless shifts and movements, mixing and separation of groups for all kind of reasons. But I think the separation because of different religions is probably the reason that lead to the biggest rifts, at least in that place.
I don't see how that has anything to do with whether or not a group of people is native to or had ancestry in a land.
Because people native to a land don't tend to butcher their neighbors and then establish an apartheid state, even for ideological differences,
I am not sure if you are serious.
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