"Woke" games : microblogmemes

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 4 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Remember when Sierra had to hire an outside company to do King's Quest 8, and they completely ignored Roberta Williams' notes, instructions, and design simply because "You're a woman, you don't know anything about games, shut up and let us work. This is going to be an RPG, not an Adventure game, and you're going to like it little lady!... Who is also the wife of the owner, the co-founder of the company, and the creator+headwriter of the series we're currently working for."

And it kept happening no matter how much she complained, so eventually they had to kick them out, but there wasn't enough time to make a new game so the "Not King's Quest" King's Quest game had to be released to try to make money back..

And it was basically a shitty version of Ultima 9, an already shitty game, and was so bad and tonally out of place with the rest of the series that the King's Quest Collection on Steam only has 1-7 and the Reboot?

Yeah I normally like to root for the underdog game of a franchise and try to defend it, but KQ8: Mask of Eternity can get fucked.

I'm not even a King's Quest fan, but it's one of the most infuriating cases of sexism I've ever had the displeasure of learning about.

Imagine this happening in any other context. Imagine Square Enix hires a bunch of white guys to do Dragon Quest, sends in a higher-up to make sure it stays on brand, and they just tell him "You're asian, what do you know about good games?", and turn in a grimdark first person shooter that just happens to be called Dragon Quest, and Square Enix is in such a dire financial state that they're forced to publish it as a mainline entry.

That's basically what happened.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 hour ago

I'm just going to say that a lot of creative, innovative, or interesting things, regardless if they're physical items, narratives, gameplay mechanics, or even just a new process for handling a particular task, is borne from diversity.

We are different. That difference is a strength. The more different we are, the larger of a gap between how I approach an issue and how you do the same. The Delta between your approach and mine is beautiful. One may be more efficient, one may be easier, one might be less expensive to do.

If we all thought the same, and we were extremely similar in what we knew and how we thought, nothing would ever change. Progress would not be possible.

A great example of this is with the blue LED. Most companies have been able to make blue LEDs for decades. The problem is, they were expensive, and shit. They couldn't brighten up a shoe box.

One guy took a blue LED manufacturing process that everyone else abandoned, and worked with it for the better part of like, 5 years or something. He invented the modern blue LED in all its glory. Bright enough to blind you from across the room, and cheap enough to produce that they ended up in a lot of places they probably shouldn't have been. That experimentation also yielded a near ultraviolet version that with a simply phosphor filter, can be converted to visible light, and white LEDs were born

[–] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago

Not that there would be any game that meets their "unwokeness" purity standards.

[–] CliveRosfield@lemmy.world 27 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (2 children)

There’s nothing wrong with calling a bad game woke if they’re trying to cover their blatant flaws by tokenizing minorities and lgbt. See: Concord

[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 14 points 4 hours ago

Picking a game that was already bad for 700 reasons doesn’t make the idiotic “woke = bad” label okay. The writing in a live service game was never going to be great.

[–] Clbull@lemmy.world 4 points 5 hours ago

Starfield is another good example.

Some of you may have seen HeelVsBabyface's infamous "pronouns" rant video and taken it a bit out of context. Many said he was upset at the sight of a pronouns selection option on the character creation menu. His rant actually came a few hours into playing after a series of quests with incredibly contrived dialogue.

[–] josefo@leminal.space 0 points 2 hours ago

You don't get it, they like the women, gays and non whites providing labor, they just want them hidden, so it doesn't ruins their gamer experience. They are just labor, and there is no place for them in the exclusive gamer space.

It's like the old days, you want your slaves and servants just to serve you, like machines, you don't want to acknowledge their existence as human beings. They are not equal to you, they just sustain your life style, because they deserve so. And only that, no humanity for them.

[–] chon@lemmy.world 5 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (2 children)

I’ve got a few concerns with Chris’ post, particularly the use of logical fallacies that undermine his main argument. Let’s break this down:

Straw Man Fallacy #1:

People who complain about wokeness in new video games don’t actually care about the past, just their imagined version of it.

This statement misrepresents the position of those who critique "wokeness" in media. It assumes that everyone in this group shares a simplistic, uniform, and flawed perspective on history, which is neither fair nor accurate.

Isn’t it ironic to advocate for inclusivity while reducing the opposing view to a stereotype? For example, I personally dislike overt "wokeness" in games, yet I don’t fit the imaginary box you’ve described. My position isn’t rooted in a denial of history but in the belief that games, music, and films are creative, self-contained domains to be enjoyed on their own merits—not as platforms for political messaging.

It’s not about rejecting inclusivity or denying the contributions of diverse creators. Rather, it’s about questioning why politics should take center stage in these art forms. Why must every creative work be a vehicle for ideological statements? Art can reflect politics naturally when it’s intrinsic to the story or setting, but forcing it risks alienating audiences who value the escapism and creativity of the medium.

Straw Man Fallacy #2:

Games we love are created by diverse people [...]. Just because you’re unaware of them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Who exactly is denying the existence of diverse creators? This statement uses vague, accusatory language aimed at a generalized “you” without specifying who or what is being addressed. This lack of specificity makes it difficult to engage with the argument constructively.

If the intent is to highlight the contributions of diverse creators, that’s absolutely valid and worth celebrating. But framing the point as an assumed rebuttal to an undefined group of people not only creates unnecessary division but also fails to advance the discussion meaningfully.

When addressing criticism, it’s more effective to engage with specific ideas or individuals rather than casting a wide net over an entire group. Otherwise, this risks becoming the very thing being criticized: stereotyping and marginalizing others based on assumptions.

[–] Xatolos@reddthat.com 6 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

My position isn’t rooted in a denial of history but in the belief that games, music, and films are creative, self-contained domains to be enjoyed on their own merits—not as platforms for political messaging.

The issue here is that every time I see someone complaining that a game is "woke" is when suddenly there are gay people, or people of colour, or women not looking like a hooters waitress in the game. And the reality here is that this isn't being woke, it's that the game is being based on reality. Gay people exist, always have, so do people of colour, and women of all types and men too. The people that make it political are the people that don't want to see the real world and the people in it.

Now, I don't know what you feel is "woke" and I'm not saying this is directed at you, but just because there are people that don't fit some preconceived mold, and they are included in a game, doesn't make it magically political.

[–] chon@lemmy.world 0 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Now, I don’t know what you feel is “woke”

A combination of: Marxian economics—specifically the framework of oppressor and oppressed—applied to social categories such as gender, race, and sexuality + Critical Theory from the Frankfurt School.

but just because there are people that don’t fit some preconceived mold, and they are included in a game, doesn’t make it magically political.

I know you're not directing this at me but still, I respectully disagree. This sudden overcompensation of swapping the gender, sexuality or race of characters in movies and games, under the guise of "celebrating diversity," often feels less like a meaningful or thoughtful inclusion and more like a superficial, performative gesture. This trend is widespread and politically charged, driven not by genuine artistic intent but by a desire to align with current cultural trends. Some people call it "tokenism".

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 1 points 5 minutes ago

A combination of: Marxian economics—specifically the framework of oppressor and oppressed—applied to social categories such as gender, race, and sexuality + Critical Theory from the Frankfurt School.

bro who is putting that in video games

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 11 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

A game that's got well written characters representing minorities or which includes political theming and executes it well (e.g. Bioshock, Fallout 2 or Disco Elysium) is more woke than any other. That kind of game's core concept is to make a strong point about structural injustice in society.

Games with token representation or the plot is thin but the main character is a woman so you're sexist of you don't buy it are generally not woke at all. They're only pretending to be as a marketing strategy. They're not doing anything to make anyone think about structural injustice in society, and are instead appealing to the common don't be horrible to groups that it was normal to be horrible to decades ago that their market research team determined were already agreed with by most of their potential customers. It's just capitalism noticing that mysogynists etc. are no longer the largest demographic and being very unsubtle when signalling that the product thinks women are people.

There are a small number of very vocal people who complain about both kinds of game. They don't want people to acknowledge that treating women as people is now the default, but even more than that, they don't want people to play Bioshock as then if they're shown anything by Ayn Rand, they'll be immediately able to spot the flawed logic on her philosophy. They're careful to make sure to present it as if they're only complaining about the virtue-signalling-as-marketing kind as everyone recognises that they're generally crap, so it makes it look like they're making a reasonable argument. It also means people amplify the argument, but by using phrases like woke instead of badly written it makes it easier to correctly label well-written games containing politics they disagree with as woke, too, and have people make the association with being badly written annoying slop by themselves, without having people who've played the game point out that it is well-written and someone saying otherwise is an idiot.

[–] chon@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

They’re not doing anything to make anyone think about structural injustice in society,

What does this have to do with enjoying games? At their core, games are meant to entertain, engage, and immerse players in experiences that transcend the everyday. The primary goal is enjoyment.

Injecting external debates, especially contentious ones, into this space often detracts from what makes games special. It shifts the focus from the creativity, storytelling, and fun that unite players to divisive topics that many come to games to escape from.

False dilemma #1:

It’s just capitalism noticing that mysogynists etc. are no longer the largest demographic and being very unsubtle when signalling that the product thinks women are people.

Capitalism itself doesn’t "notice" anything; it responds to consumer demand and market trends. The idea of a "misogynist demographic" is flawed because such a group doesn’t actually exist in any meaningful, targeted way.

Textbook Straw man:

There are a small number of very vocal people who complain about both kinds of game. They don’t want people to acknowledge that treating women as people is now the default,

Who exactly are the “small number of very vocal people” you’re referring to? Are you speaking about a specific group or just a generalized idea of dissenters? Without evidence or clear examples, this comes across as a vague accusation rather than a meaningful argument.

Moreover, how is it that you’re aware of their intentions? What concrete actions have they taken to actively prevent people from acknowledging that treating women as people is now the default? Are there examples of deliberate efforts to suppress this acknowledgment, or is this an assumption about their motives?

Ironically, the statement itself mirrors the behaviors it criticizes: it paints a reductive, hostile caricature of the opposing view while claiming moral high ground.

[–] mrslt@lemmy.world 32 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

To be fair, what the OOP is describing is "diversity in the video game industry", not "woke games", per se. While I doubt anyone here has objections to the former, I also doubt that anyone here is a fan of "Dustborn", as an example.

[–] Rose@lemmy.zip 3 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Dustborn is a good game that has been incredibly misrepresented. Take the "you are racist" scene copied and pasted from video to video for example. It's presented as the game's Black protagonist just accusing two cops of racism for no reason.

In the actual game, it's one of the multiple dialogue choices that may not even happen if one of the protagonist's friends intervenes. The context that is omitted from the culture war videos is that the protagonist comes out of the bathroom of a diner and sees two Justice officers:

Talking about arresting her friends for no reason other than being tired of waiting for the waiter.
Going on a long rant about Anomals (read as mutants of the X-Men, which is one of the inspirations behind the game), saying they're monsters whose babies come out damaged, missing body parts, and that they shouldn't procreate at all so that there are "fewer scourges on the planet".
Asking the protagonist questions (which is fine for a police officer) while being disrespectful, like when she says she's in a band and they ask if she's the groupie.
Depending on the player's actions, the same officers may also ask if the protagonist and "the Black kid" from her crew are related, then among themselves argue on whether that's racist, to which the protagonist may reply with the Trigger Vox, which results in the "you're racists" phrase.

Also worth noting that from the very first scenes of the game, the player is discouraged from using the special abilities, Vox, as they force people to do things against their will, so many players would never see that reaction intended to be over the top (as evident from the in-game post-chapter choice stats indicating that the majority don't use Vox on other occasions).

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 22 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I hate this kind of comment. A bad game doing poorly that happens to be "woke" isn't evidence that being "woke" made it bad. For example, Dragon Age Origins is pretty "woke" (especially for its time) but it's recognized as an amazing game by pretty much everyone. If you make a great game that's written well, it's probably going to be received well. The issue is modern AAA gaming just makes mass audience slop that is devoid of passion and dictated by suits to chase trends. Being "woke" doesn't matter. Being good matters.

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[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 points 4 hours ago

Ugh, DEI has even infected the past now!

[–] mechoman444@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Yes this man is absolutely correct. Aside from the obvious strawman's. The difference between the games he mentioned and the games currently coming out showcasing "wokeness" is that the old games are good.

No one actually cares how "woke" a game is as long as it's good.

Baldurs gate 2, arguably one of the best games ever made. Concord on the other hand... Ya.

[–] FluorideMind@lemmy.world 33 points 11 hours ago (3 children)

When a game puts it in your face that this character is is gay/trans/ethnic in a way that feels arbitrary to the setting or effected character, it comes off very much like a political move for sales.

Let's use soldier 76 from overwatch as an example. The way he was written on top of the are they aren't they thing he had going on with Ana didn't support him being gay at all. The announcement that he is gay came completely randomly and really fealt like a political move to add a little more representation.

On the other hand, we have good characters who happen to be LGBT, Ellie from the last of us, or my personal favorite Veronica from New Vegas.

[–] unbanshee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

I agree with you, slapping a veneer of diverse identity on a character post-facto is often just performative bullshit. At best it's bad representation, at worst it's cynical pinkwashing and pandering for profit.

But that's not a distinction I have ever seen an "anti-woke gamer" railing against.

What I do see them railing against is any representation in games that does not pander to their own personal preferences.

Did you not encounter any of the backlash to Ellie's sexuality? Honestly I think FNV only escapes a lot of that kind of vitriol because it was released pre-gg.

Shaun hits a lot of my major concerns in his new video.

[–] zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 hours ago

I won't disagree that Soldier's gayness came pretty much out of the blue, but I don't think it's a good example of something that was "put it in our face". I play Overwatch regularly still with people who have no idea he's gay - the game itself doesn't say anything about it, at least not that I've seen. The only way you'd know originally is if you followed Overwatch social media or read the blog post they announced it in, something that only a small fraction of players actually do.

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[–] kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E@lemmy.world 18 points 10 hours ago

Please choose body type:

Body Type 1 (with large shoulders and no ass)
Body Type 2 (with large ass and boobs)

Ah yes, progressive inclusiveness. So much better!

[–] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 11 points 9 hours ago (12 children)

Woke isn't being progressive. It's being progressive to an extent beyond any sort of logic, virtue signaling constantly, and then calling anyone who disagrees with you morally or intellectually inferior.

In entertainment, that often results in some really annoying elements that I think we can all acknowledge are a thing after almost a decade of this:

There is a minority protagonist. Said protagonist is disproportionately a straight coded conventionally attractive white women in their 20s.
The only flaw the protagonist will have is not being confident enough
There is then a minority side character. Said character will disproportionately be a black woman obviously less attractive than the protagonist, or a upper middle class gay fuckboi.
If there is not one of these two things, a minority side character will be shoehorned in somewhere. The character will feel visibly out of place, and no explanation will be given. For example, they'll do some random black character in a fantasy setting that's clearly based off Scotland in the 1200s.
Important character goes on a monologue that feels like a political PSA
The IP's understanding of progressive politics and social justice is roughly equivalent to Tumblr circa 2013.
Absolutely terrible writing. Even if you swapped all the "woke" elements for generic entertainment elements, the IP would still be terrible.
Likewise, the IP itself is often put together in an extremely lazy and mediocre way. If said "woke" content was not there, it would be universally panned for its low quality.
Amazing reviews. All aspects of the IP get 10/10 from the "professional" critics. All the reviews are similar enough that the critics either collaborated or read off the press release.
The critics care more about the social justice aspect than the game itself.
You get the sense both the creators and the critics of the IP not only don't consume this type of IP in their spare time, but actively resent people who do.
Constant fucking gaslighting. Anyone who doesn't like this ultimately mediocre IP is either morally and intellectually inferior. This usually comes in the form of accusations of being a bigot, a Nazi, or a Trump supporter.
Bigots, Nazis, and Trump supporters will then try to recruit people who are pissed about the gaslighting.
At some point the IP itself fades into the background, and it just becomes yet another culture war battleground.

I think there's a reason Star Wars gets more shit for being woke than Spiderverse, or that Arcane hasn't become a culture war battleground in the same way She-Hulk did. The reason being those shows are actually good, and most people are happy to watch good shows.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 19 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Your last bit is the only part that matters. Good content is good. There's so much well written progressive "woke" stuff that does well, but it's easy to point at a shitty flop and say it failed because it's "woke" rather than doing the hard work and actually analyzing why it's bad. "Woke" content isn't an issue in media. It's that we're getting so much bad and lazy writing in AAA games (and other big media). They aren't allowed to be creative, so it ends up being garbage.

[–] unbanshee@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Add on top of that that the games industry has laid off TENS OF THOUSANDS of devs in the last three or four years.

I know a lot of talented people who are no longer working as devs, or who have been job searching for months.

Of course this doesn't mean that the studios still producing games have narrowed their scopes, they just dump more work on the survivors.

And "woke DEI SJW snowflake game dev" is far from the only thing making games worse, it's just what a lot of gamers can easily identify as a problem.

By the time I left, my last industry job had been reduced to what felt like manning the slop hose of mtx store items made by overseas outsource studios producing soulless trash under fuck-knows-what kind of nightmare working conditions.

We started seeing more diversity in games because devs are diverse and wanted to see themselves and their friends in their art.

The problem has never been queer or black characters in games. It is, and always has been, the prioritizing of profit over quality craft.

[–] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 5 points 6 hours ago

I'd argue that forced diversity is primarily because so many higher ups don't give a fuck about gaming or making good content.

The suits just want money, and for some reason corporate thought that weighing in on social and political issues was a huge money maker in the 2020s. The journalists just want to promote their own political agenda and get ragebait clicks. The project director is someone with a corporate background but a progressive flair that makes them seem "hip" to the suits.

Meanwhile the people who give a shit, regardless of their identity, don't have a voice in the room.

I'm sure there are plenty of minorities that are super pissed about what happened to bioware, but the only way you'd hear from them is by looking at sales figures because they don't have a bully pulpit.

[–] LePoisson@lemmy.world 38 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Woke isn't being progressive. It's being progressive to an extent beyond any sort of logic, virtue signaling constantly, and then calling anyone who disagrees with you morally or intellectually inferior

I fucking hate that the idea of being woke was poisoned and turned into this when it very much is not and never was.

Woke is acknowledging the systemic racism playing out daily in the United States of America.

I think most of what you wrote isn't even true to be honest, it's a well strung together list of annoying tropes which doesn't even happen nearly as much or widely as some would suggest. It's a neat little "here's a bad way of caring" package but it ain't the truth.

I appreciate the effort you went through to write the post and I understand your viewpoint. At the same time, this is a great example of how the term "woke" has been co-opted into meaning something it never really did. Being awake to the injustices present in our lives isn't a bad thing. Turning woke into a slur to wrongly characterize and misdirect away from its true original intent has been an effective, and gross, way to get people to automatically reject real critique.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 15 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

You're both right, but it's far too late to take the word back, no point in going on about the origins.

[–] Katana314@lemmy.world 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

No it isn’t.

I am woke, and that is a good thing, and anyone complaining about that is an idiot.

[–] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 hours ago

I'd be described as woke, but I've always hated the term. Maybe it's because I was just growing into it right as it became the bogeyman phrase, I don't know.

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[–] angstylittlecatboy@reddthat.com 10 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I get what you're saying, but...

For example, they'll do some random black character in a fantasy setting that's clearly based off Scotland in the 1200s.

While I don't know about 1200s Scotland specifically, the notion that black people didn't exist in old Europe is a false narrative by racists who seem to believe immigration was invented around the 1700s (like, I've seen them claim black people don't fit into Ancient Greece, which is definitely wrong.)

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