And opposing those actions is not antisemitic.
We take those two things together as truth and we are getting somewhere.
this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2024
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I only hate the zionists and a great many of them are not Jewish.
Many of them are open antisemites even. Zionism and Antisemitism are allied ideologies.
Well that’s counterintuitive. Where’d you learn that?
It is counterintuitive but it does make sense. You see the initial plan the Nazis used to try to get rid of the Jews was to expel them from Germany. They had no problem if the Jews all grouped together and settled their own country so long as it was somewhere else. Far away from them. (And when they didn't leave they made conditions horrible for them). That's why antisemites love Zionism; it's a way to get rid of the Jewish population in their country without dirtying their hands with ethnic cleansing. Which is how we get to conspiracy nutjobs who rant about Jewish space lasers setting forest fires in the US for some reason, turning around and enthusiastically supporting Israel and defence aid for Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism
To put it briefly. Zionism is a ethno-nationalist ideology. One country for each ethnicity and were the dominating ethnicity gets to supress every minority. This on the one hand is what whit supremacist fascists believe too. On the other hand Israels key claim to its right to exist at the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is that Israel would be the only safe place for Jews in the world. If Jews are persecuted and discriminated against outside of Israel this is good for Israel as they can justify their existence with it. For Antisemites historically and today it is great to allow for an out to "get rid of the Jews" by sending them to Israel. Exactly what was done by Britain.
So they both share the same ideological core, which is ethnostates ("Blut und Boden" - blood and soil, like the Nazis called it) and operatively they profit from each other.
We can oppose genocide without anti semetic bullshit.
Read from Israeli activists like Ilan Papé describe the Israeli society as a fascist supremacist society. they don't care about the right of Palestinians to live freely on their land.
I'm not arguing that what you're saying isn't true, but what does it have to do with OP's post?
Participating in the Israeli conquest and ethnic purge absolutely deserves hatred and disgust.
This goes well beyond the Israeli's right most partisan faction and extends to the entire Zionist movement.
Look, taking OP's context into account, it sounds like you're saying that you hold ethnic hatred and disgust for Jews.
I am hoping that's not what you're saying here, but again, looking at OP's meme, and your responses to it and to me, I honestly can't reach any other conclusion.
you hold ethnic hatred and disgust for Jews
Is Zionism an ethnicity? Does that mean anti-Zionist Jews aren't Jewish?
I honestly can’t reach any other conclusion
Reach harder
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that OP said that hatred of Jews isn't justified, and you sound like you are disagreeing.
OP said that hatred of Jews isn’t justified
Conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is a right wing Israel talking point.
I thought we established that we don't like them
The jewish population in israel is in a better position to effect change than the loudest voices anywhere else
And most of them happily endorse the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. We need to oust the Israelis as the fascists they are and make it clear that they do no speak for Jews in general and their fascist ideology is in direct contradiction to the values of Judaism. I am most worried for and most impressed by the few Jews in Israel that fight this fascist regime and get attacked and in return by it, while the West proclaims to stand for the fight against antisemitism by supporting the abuse of Jews who stand up for Jewish values.
I wish we could say the same about Israelis.
Not all Israelis support netanyahu or the death/colonisation. Even if maybe the majority do.
Too many do, unfortunately.
Everyone should get the chance to prove themselves an asshole.
Same for Americans. There are some good ones in there.
Actually Canadians are from a completely different country
... Yep... And we repeat that sentiment for Hamas.
Yes, thank you!
I really wish this didn’t need to be clarified every few days. Thanks, zionists and white supremacists!
This is why I try to specify that my complaints are about Netanyahu or the IDF.
And the Zionists.
I’m a little fuzzy on exactly what Zionism is, so I just don’t talk about it, rather than saying something accidentally racist, and/or making an ass of myself.
Zionism is basically the belief that Jewish people deserve to own Palestine/Jerusalem ("Zion") and that non-Jews should be ethnically cleansed from "Zion" (the Nakba)
Zionism is essentially the belief that Ethnically Jewish people deserve their own homeland. This usually translates to "Israel has a right to exist".
This does not necessarily mean endorsement of ethnic cleansing. That is not the core of Zionism, it is the core of what you oppose, and you have been convinced to casually refer to those things as Zionism.
Taking a hard-line against Zionism in this way is like saying "Catholicism is basically the belief that women should be brood mares". Sure, Catholics are largely against Abortion, but they aren't a monolith. You're going to find plenty of members of the group that don't tow the line on that.
In this sense, you are looking at the Israeli leaders that use Zionism as a justification for what they are doing to Gaza/Palestine et al, and deciding that everyone under the Zionist umbrella must be exactly the same. The problem here is that you're dead wrong about what Zionists actually believe and are alienating people that might otherwise be your allies, because they can't tell if you're arguing that Palestine should be free, or if their friends and families in Israel deserve to be displaced, oppressed, or even murdered in revenge for the Nakba.
Yeah no. Jewish Israeli people can live in Palestine, with the Arabs they're trying to displace, like Jews have for thousands of years before modern Israel existed. Israel is inherently, and has always been, an apartheid ethnostate and has no reason nor right to exist. Israeli nationalism is a bad thing and Israel's entire purpose is Jewish supremacy. If you remove the "ethnostate" aspect of Israel, you don't have Israel; there is no Israel without either apartheid or genocide of non-Jews.
Israel has no right to exist. No state really has any right to exist, but Israel's existence is especially bad. It should be dissolved. That doesn't mean displacement of the people that live there, that means the replacement of the Israeli state.
There are plenty of Israelis who were adults when Israel was founded, and participated in the extermination of Arabs during the colonial occupation, and cheered on the theft of their lands. They form the foundation of Israeli society, and most of the non-Arab Israeli populace still encourages the oppression and genocide of Arabs. I do not believe any individual who cheers on the genocide of the peoples their great-grandparents recently stole the lives of should have the "right" to live on the recently stolen land.
Israel's democratically elected right wing government.
They violate human rights, it doesn't really matter to me if they are elected.
Im saying its not just the government to blame, the people of israel are also responsible.
The US had Trump for 4 years and are threatening to do it again, so we don't have a finger to point.
Yeh, and I'd say he's fairly representative of the US.
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with that.
Even if 70% voted for trump, the other 30% are good people and don't deserve to be thrown in with the fascists.
But, in that hypothetical, it would be true to say that 70% of Americans support fascism. Which is unpleasant to have to accept.
I learned at the Brexit referendum that 52% of my countrymen are so racist they'd wreck their own economy to reduce immigration. I have to live with that. I live in a racist country.
That (and the trump election actually) was only possible with a massive amount of disinformation and populism. I don't think everyone that voted like that was properly informed.
The current right wing government also doesn't represent every citizen of Israel either, but it is ok to use 'Israel' as a shorthand for the actions of the current right wing government when the actions are a continuation of decades of similar colonialism and the government is in power due to how the majority of the population voted.
So hatred against everyone in Israel is also wrong, but saying Israel is committing genocide doesn't require saying it is the current government.
This meme should say "The actions of Israel does not represent the will of all Jews,,,"
Edit: I expect everyone who down voted also refrains from using Russia, China, or the United States and other names of countries when making criticisms for consistency. "Russia didn't invade Ukraine, the current Putin led government did."
It happens to be the Israel government that claims anything hamas does should be taken out on all Arabs in Gaza.
It’s only fair to offer them the same privilege - you elect a government and they represent your country. What they do the people has to answer for.
Should I be allowed to vote for someone that say “we should exterminate all swedes” and not stand to answer for that when they get power and start killing swedes?
Not everyone voted for him you dipshit.
When trump got elected, did every american vote for him? Use your fucking brain.
doesn’t matter much as he got elected. He shouldn’t be stopped from power by vote - he should be unable to run.
You need to take responsibility for your laws and how your society works.
Trumps people seem to understand this and makes actual change to how the US works.
To me it seems they are making it worse, but there’s no revolt, so I’m guessing people accept it, even if not cheering.
I need to take responsibility for MY laws? I vote for the most left party available in my country. What do you want me to do? Walk into the presidents office and slap his ass across the room?
A ton of people are protesting. We are doing our best. The government is not like the little sloth operated office from zootopia. They will beat the fuck out of you and turn you into swiss cheese with bullets if you revolt.
I can't fight a tank or an army.
Or do you think i get a letter in the mail for every law so i can vote for that specific one or deny it?
I don’t think you do. But you have resigned because what can you do than protest?
In time when you are pushed even further down into the shit your kids will figure it out. People always do, it just takes time to get to that level - and leave the humanity behind.
And it sure looks like it’s going to shit really fast - with 1700-era laws for guns and forcing women to be reproduction-machines without a voice. Especially as you didn’t have that much freedom in the first place.
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