this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2024
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Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.

On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.

The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.

“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”

Link to study: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study-finds-emerging-gender-divide-in-young-peoples-attitudes

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[–] AdmiralShat@programming.dev 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I find the internet is super good at locking people into echo chambers. For some reason, I feel especially keen on this when I was super into reddit over the last decade. I could FEEL just how a community would shift into just saying the same 10 things on repeat and any deviation would result in downvotes and messages in my inbox.

But it's not just reddit. Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you've engaged with previously.

So what ends up happening is young boys only see the videos of angry purple haired stereotype liberal feminist first year college student get SLAMMED/DESTROYED by Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or a woman who is clearly saying something sarcastic with sad sigma male music in the background and all the comments are calling for her to be put in prison or death.

And that's not to say people don't experience these types IRL and it morphs their opinions, my sister is this stereotype and is pretty fucking stupid and she will get into heated debates on Facebook about stuff she has no idea about. She'll read a headline and form a whole mindset of bullshit around it and never verify if it was just a click bait article posted to Facebook to get ad revenue with no concept of journalist integrity. It's really difficult talking to her about anything political because even though I'm pretty liberal/progressive myself, she'll just say things that are factually wrong and when I try to talk to her about it she takes it as me disagreeing and won't listen to reason or logic outside of her preconceived image of reality. Very difficult person

I often have to look at her and remind myself that people like her are a very small portion of the population and aren't really indicative of the masses.

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you’ve engaged with previously.

People should really stop saying this. Every YouTube ad I get and recommendation I get is crap now. It is like someone ordered the developers to break echo chambers by making sure people don't get what they want. I am not a fucking kid, I know what I want to watch, and what I don't want to watch. Tired of the anti trans bullshit I am constantly being suggested.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 0 points 7 months ago

i think your experience is likely anecdotal and non-representative of general trends.

scholars still indicate that algorithms play a significant role in gathering echo chambers

[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Feminism has a branding problem. The name itself makes it sound like it's about putting women above men. People who don't know better—the kind of people who are disproportionately young—will judge feminism based on the name.

Calling it feminism made sense when everyone "knew" women were generally inferior to men, but since gender equality has become the mainstream view, the name had lost the context that made it work. Combined with the scope creep of feminism that causes it to encompass issues like disability rights and economic inequality, I think feminism is becoming indistinguishable from leftism.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

edit: Replacing what I said, still trying to figure out the best way to word this sorry yall.

The branding problem was intentionally created. Leaders in the manosphere profit off of young men subscribing to misogynistic beliefs. While movement PR is important, I would not be so quick to assign blame because this this has been an attack decades in the making, bolstered by social media algorithms.

[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The only conclusion I can take from your screed is that you completely misunderstood everything I said. I'm not defending assholes like Peterson and Tate in any way.

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 0 points 7 months ago

Rereading what I wrote and I get why you thought I misunderstood. I edited my original response as well. Sorry about that.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

The problem is the so called Third Wave Feminism, which is far too often just middle and high-middle class women trying to obtain special benefits for themselves by claimimg the whole group they were born into "is a victim" (even though they themselves were born into and are amongst the most priviledged 1% of people in the World) and hence "must be compensated" in some way which is discriminatory against all those not in the group and which is invariably in a form that is mainly usefull for middle class and high-middle class well educated women in well-of western nations. Hence things like Quotas or the practice of Benevolent Mascism in power situations such as in Court (for example the whole gender-discriminatory idea that the Mother should be prefered as the custodian of children when a couple separates).

This is generally neither fair, nor equal (you know, the whole judge and treat people based on what they do, not based on the genetics they were born with) and even has zero positive effects for the vast majority of women out there who aren't the well-of scions of well-of families in well-of countries: you get loud noises about the "glass ceiling" that stops well-of women from maximizing their income from being in the upper classes, not about the 3000% difference in incomes between those above said glass chieling such as corporate CEOs and the average worker, which includes most women.

This shit isn't Leftwing, it's just a "make believe leftie" facet of "Greed is good" Neoliberal Capitalism: personal upside maximization hidden behind "the group" so that it doesn't just look like naked greed, hence why you see this mostly supported by Liberals in Anglo-Saxon nations, not traditional Lefties.

Previous generations of Feminism (and those who still now fight for Equality and Fairness) are the ones who are deserving of tremendous respect and support, not these pampered, priviledged, greedy people who happen to have been born with 2 X cromossomes and who want to maintain the discriminatory and prejudiced treatment of people base on the genetics they were born with, as long as theirs is the group getting benefited by that discrimination.

It's thus not surprising that amongst those who are not in the groups that benefits form the discrimination these people defend and are exposed to this highly moralistic variance of greed is good, grow negative about it. The thing is made even worse in the US because Politics ther is entirelly in the Moral space (people have no genuine choice on how the Economics is managed in that country since both sides of the Power Duopoly do the same in that field) so you end up with equally pro-descrimination groups on the other side, who just differ in who gets favoured by said discriminationand face off against these, muddling the whole "equality" domain.

It's pretty hard to find a space if you're genuinelly pro-Equality and pro-Fairness and not be confuse by either side of selfish fucker as being in the other side of selfish fuckers.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 0 points 7 months ago

Wow, you are knee deep in the manosphere rhetoric. Hate speech online does work.

[–] maness300@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Feminism has 100% turned into a push for superiority, not equality.

Modern feminists believe it's "their turn" to be the abusers.

Just listen to the disparaging jokes we've all heard them make towards men and imagine how they would react if the same things were said about women.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

What makes you believe that women are now the abusers and superior to men?

[–] Clbull@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I can't say I'm surprised that people like Andrew Tate, Steven Crowder, Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have gained quite the social media following. Society has failed a lot of young men, and the oligarchy that controls our world has a lot to answer for.

Men are disproportionately affected by a lot of the socioeconomic issues currently plaguing the Western world because despite decades of progress towards creating an egalitarian society, men are the ones who are negatively impacted if they cannot provide. Look at the US and how judicial decisions on child custody and alimony are heavily favoured towards women as a very good example of this.

And before you dispute me on this notion, can you offer any other explanation for why the biggest role model for a lot of teenage boys is some bloomy rind dick cheese who looks like a spitting image of the Stonks meme guy?

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Men are disproportionately affected by a lot of the socioeconomic issues

Women are more poor than men. So, what do you mean by this?

men are the ones who are negatively impacted if they cannot provide.

What does that even mean?

judicial decisions on child custody and alimony are heavily favoured towards women

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it. Men pay more alimony on average because they are more likely to have and earn more money.

Single mothers (not single fathers) are one of the poorest groups worldwide. That goes for the USA as well.

It seems like you really bought into the angry YouTubers.

[–] aidan@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Women are more poor than men.

Men are more homeless. The median wage difference between men and women 18-34 is not significant.

What does that even mean?

Going to the first point, societally, generally women have more to fall back on. Of course it would be great if everyone can choose to work or not, but generally in a straight relationship, the only one with a real choice is the woman. Also, obviously this is controversial to say, but semi-jokingly a lot of men see being able to sell sex/nudes as a privilege for relatively easy money.

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it.

Source?

Single mothers (not single fathers) are one of the poorest groups worldwide. That goes for the USA as well.

Does that include the single fathers in prison?

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Men are more homeless.

Selection bias, as homeless women have twice the mortality of their male peers. There are more living homeless men entirely because there are more dead homeless women.

societally, generally women have more to fall back on

More of what?

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it.

Fathers who fight for custody typically get it. Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases. In one study where both parents fought hard for custody, mothers were awarded custody just 7% of the time.

What's more damning is that In 91% of custody cases, the parents mutually decide to give custody to the mother. Fathers fight for custody in court in less than 4% of divorces. Twenty-seven percent of fathers completely abandon their children after divorce.

Does that include the single fathers in prison?

Bizarrely, yes. In the rare instances when fathers with convictions attempt to win custody, they have a better than average chance of obtaining it.

A great deal of this boils down to with the gender pay gap which favors men at virtually every income tier and along every sociological fault line. Since primary guardianship is officially a gender neutral dispute, the individual with the larger income enjoys disproportionate advantage in winning custody.

[–] gun@lemmy.ml 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

There are more living homeless men entirely because there are more dead homeless women.

You can't honestly believe this. The mortality rate is awful but it does not sufficiently explain why there are more men than women unhoused.

Edit: Turns out their own source debunks their claim on the first page. You can't make this stuff up.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago

You can’t honestly believe this.

I don't have to believe it. I've got the data to prove it.

The mortality rate is awful but it does not sufficiently explain

When the mortality rate among women is twice that of men, the only way you get an equivalent number of homeless women is if the deficit is made up by women moving into the homeless population faster than men.

So which is it? Are men predominant because women die faster? Or are they not predominant because more women are becoming homeless?

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago

I can’t say I’m surprised that people like Andrew Tate, Steven Crowder, Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have gained quite the social media following.

I can. Their content sucks. It's whiny and boring and utterly tasteless. Tate's an absolute skeez. Crowder has zero swag. Peterson is an incoherent puddle. And Ben Shapiro... well... just come on, wtf is this?

And before you dispute me on this notion, can you offer any other explanation for why the biggest role model for a lot of teenage boys is some bloomy rind dick cheese who looks like a spitting image of the Stonks meme guy?

Because that's half of what YouTube / Twitch / Netflix / et al serves up anymore. These people are the dregs of modern media, but they and their promoters are everywhere. Its the same way that AM radio is the endless cesspool of senile racists whining about scary foreigners and Daytime TV is washed up fashion models pretending to have the secret to fame, fortune, and eternal youth. The lowest common denominator of mass media is overflowing with gross, juvenile bullshit.

And when you simply cannot escape the morass of filth, that's going to affect you one way or another.