this post was submitted on 08 Nov 2024
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Trump has stated he will cut American aid to Ukraine, which makes a majority of total aid. Recently Zelensky stated that if Ukraine's only hope for sovereignty is its own nuclear arsenal, they will build it.

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[–] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 29 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

The irony is that Ukraine had "the bomb", but the US and its allies promised to protect them if they gave it up. Oops.

[–] golli@lemm.ee 2 points 13 minutes ago

Since I see this claim constantly: where in the Budapest memorandum did they promise protection?

Looking at the Wikipedia summary nowhere does anyone give security assurances similar to NATO article 5 or the even stronger worded mutual defense clause article 42 TEU of the EU. The closest it comes to is in the fourth point, but that is only in the case of nuclear weapons being used. Which obviously hasn't happened yet. Beyond that it is just a promise not to attack, which Russia has broken, but every other singator has kept. And as far as I can see it does not contain anything that compells others to act on someone else's breach.

[–] HootinNHollerin@lemmy.world 2 points 16 minutes ago* (last edited 3 minutes ago)

YES

The US and Russia promised to defend Ukraine if it surrendered its nukes. Russia is currently destroying Ukraine, and trump will let them so it’s time since that agreement was now worthless

[–] stardust@lemmy.ca 20 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

I think nuclear deterant is the only thing that has a chance of working for countries that aren't military super powers, and even military super powers have them for a reason. And a country having to rely on benevolence of other countries leaves too many things to chance for nations that wish to be sovereign.

[–] Modva@lemmy.world 2 points 48 minutes ago

Do it. Promises from super powers are worthless. Only power itself matters. And all the other countries are aware of it too now.

[–] TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world 5 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

Everyone in this thread is talking like they could. Even if the country wasn't mired in a war of attrition, the process of building it takes time, expertise, money, and materials. They only have some of those. And not any money.

[–] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 6 points 57 minutes ago* (last edited 44 minutes ago)

It would take them only a few months. Ukraine is filled with Soviet nuclear technology and Soviet nuclear engineers. They have nuclear reactors. Ukraine is richer than North Korea, and they have their own uranium mines. North Korea spent a couple billion on their nukes, but Ukraine's military budget is $82B a year, so they could easily surpass North Korea.

Geopolitics experts agree that Ukraine could build a nuke if they wanted to. The issue is that the west definitely would not want to see a world where countries threatened by Russia turn to nuclear proliferation.

Here's a video from a Danish military analyst talking about the decisions that have to be made on how to secure Ukraine after the war:

https://youtu.be/aTiunvocl5c

It's important to note, Ukraine is willing to freeze the front line now in return for security guarantees. But If the US or the EU don't step up to end the war soon, Ukrainian nuclear engineers will.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)
  1. Steal it from the Libyans

  2. Build Delorean

  3. ???

  4. ~~Profit?~~ Win War?

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 1 points 28 minutes ago

Go back in time and stop them from selling their original nuclear arsenal

[–] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 1 points 35 minutes ago

Even if they have the ability to build one, and do so without Russia turning the facility where they're building it into rubble with hypersonic missiles, they would need dozens to have full MAD type protection.

Does Ukraine even have a missile system capable of carrying that kind of payload as far as Moscow?

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

My sympathy for Ukraine says they should.

My survival instincts as an American would say they shouldn't because then Russia get big mad and nuke us. I don't enjoy radiation, so my survival brain is saying they shouldn't.

But my suicidal brain after seeing the result of the US presidential election says: Fuck it, let them do whatever, hell we can even gift some to them. Climate is fucked anyways. Lets pretend this is a sandbox game and see what happens. What's the worst that can happen, die? Hehe I've been dying inside and November 5 just cut off my life support.

So it depends which alter ego you ask. Ye know, like the angel and demon on your shoulders.

Edit: holy shit its 2AM and I'm wasting time on Lemmy. that just shows how dead on the inside i am... cant sleep, fucking election anxiety.

[–] InEnduringGrowStrong@sh.itjust.works 13 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Fighting global warming with... nuclear winter.
🤔

[–] venusaur@lemmy.world 6 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

If they’re allowed to do it, so will others who have signed NPT, like Iran. To be fair, Russia seems to have violated the Budapest Memorandum so should at least be allowed to have nuclear weapons, by maybe not develop their own.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 1 points 53 minutes ago

So if they do, should we put boots on the ground?

I mean it's the ultimate protection so I'm for it if we, as the west, fails to stand up to putin.

[–] zante@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 hour ago

I though he quit comedy

[–] sirico@feddit.uk 3 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Russia's side of Ukraine owning them was broken

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 1 points 52 minutes ago (1 children)
[–] sirico@feddit.uk 1 points 26 minutes ago

"In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for assurances from Russia, the United States and United Kingdom to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders."

[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

If they build it, they have to be ready to use it. And they'd have to use it pretty close to home. Against an adversary with equal capabilities.

Either it would have no effect at all on the conflict, or it would result in annihilation. Doesn't really seem worth it.

Though maybe to play devils advocate, creating a DMZ wasteland with tactical nukes might not be the worst outcome. Pretty terrible thought though.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 51 minutes ago

Check put M A.D doctrine.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world -2 points 3 hours ago (3 children)

Only Usamericans can think that nuclear weapons are a serious option to use.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 51 minutes ago

MAD doctrine. And it works it seems.

[–] minibyte@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 hours ago

Russia and North Korea.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-west-missile-strikes-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html

He's giving better nukes to NK in exchange for support, and there's Intel he's giving some to Iran as well.

He won't stop until he is stopped, we should have learned that by now.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

I was talking about the act of using it.

You must learn to distinguish between a threat and an act.