this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2024
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About two years ago now, I was sitting on a bench in Central Park writing my initial thoughts on what I didn't know then but would come to know as Youth Rights.

I don't think I'll ever remember why she did, but about halfway through the day Greta Thunberg came to mind, and I looked up the voting age in Sweden. And my blood boiled in a way I've never experienced in my entire life.

16 years old and one of the most famous and recognizable political activists in the world. 16 years old giving a confident, impassioned, admonishing speech to the fucking UN. 16 years old with no legal right to a voice in her country. No voice to vote for the policies she believed in or the people who might enact them.

My writing, already vitriolic to a fault, managed to become even moreso but with the topic abruptly switched to voting. For the first time in my life, I considered where I'd place the voting age if I could do so unilaterally. Not long into considering it I had a thought that I wrote down immediately, a question I've asked well over 100 times at this point with no substantial answer:

When is it reasonable to say to a person, 'If you're not at least this old, then I don't give a fuck what you think'?

And from the moment I had that thought, I have been unable to place the voting age.

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[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 1 points 1 hour ago

There should be a maximum voting age.

[–] ego_death@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ``

[–] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago
[–] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 8 points 10 hours ago

The minimum age anyone can do any of these things:

  • Pay taxes
  • Hold a job
  • Get married
  • Sign a contract
  • Join the military

I think that's currently something like 12 in the US, which is a huge problem.

[–] EnderMB@lemmy.world 6 points 10 hours ago

IMO, it should be 16. It should be the earliest age that you can work in a traditional job, or begin service in one's armed forces. Many right-wing people hate this idea because young people are very left-leaning, but it is unfair to expect someone to contribute to a society that bans them from having a say in its outcome.

[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 10 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

16

if you can get taxed as a worker at 16 you get to vote.

[–] Alice@beehaw.org 1 points 10 hours ago

This was my first thought, but then it occurred to me that if I was voting at 16, I'd almost certainly be voting for who my parents told me to. I'm still not against it but I think we'd need specialized education and tons of PSAs aimed at kids about it, because unless you're already rebellious, "my house my rules" could easily be extended to voting.

[–] RBWells@lemmy.world 4 points 14 hours ago

I think between 16 and 20 is acceptable, but I have one kid who turns 18 a week after the election. So will be almost 22 before they can vote in a presidential election. 19 or 20 before a local or state race.

So I think 16 makes more sense, because the national races being only every 4 years disenfranchises too many young people, everyone who is 15, 16, or 17 at this election won't actually get to vote at 18.

[–] cordlesslamp@lemmy.today 2 points 14 hours ago
[–] SlothMama@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Honestly I think everything should move to 20.

Alcohol purchase, consumption. Military conscription, draft, voluntary service Age of majority, marriageable age Voting with automatic voting registration Drug consumption including nicotine, caffeine, and cabinets Driving ( permits at a prior age with supervision )

We know people's brains aren't really formed enough even at 18 to consider people adults, this younger age is a hold over from even younger ages and doesn't reflect reality.

People who are not fully developed shouldn't be able to make decisions with the full weight of adulthood, to take any other position is barbaric.

[–] hellabryanstyle@lemmy.ml 2 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

We're definitely not at the point that this brain development science should be affecting policy. Here's an article from 2022 featuring commentary from several neuroscientists. And here are a couple important quotes:

“Some 8-year-old brains exhibited a greater ‘maturation index’ than some 25 year old brains,”

The interpretation of neuroimaging is the most difficult and contentious part; in a 2020 study, 70 different research teams analyzed the same data set and came away with wildly different conclusions.

And here is a different article written entirely by a neuroscientist and released earlier this year.

[–] wuphysics87@lemmy.ml 4 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Aside from practical reasons like being able to read and write, I think the age to vote should be as low as possible.

People are concerned that parents will coerce their kids, but that would happen across the board. It would come out in the wash.

The most important thing is that folks are civically engaged as young as possible. They are invested in the outcome and exercise their rights early.

I would say a good starting point would be third grade. Right when you begin learning social studies.

[–] WeirdGoesPro@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

But it wouldn’t come out in the wash. Crazy people would be incentivized to have even more kids to increase their vote. They already do it for “God’s will”, so why not do it for America?

[–] wuphysics87@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 hours ago

Yes that's partly the idea. It doesn't tip the scale. The idea with lowering the voting age as possible it does come out in the wash, but the benefit is that kids are civically engaged. The hope being that engagement carries over as they get older

[–] collapse_already@lemmy.ml 4 points 17 hours ago

People over 80 don't have as much of a stake in the future. Maybe they should lose the vote?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 45 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Same as the age you can work and pay taxes.

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[–] Zier@fedia.io 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

18. This is the age you should be able to: vote drink be liable as adult for everything join the military smoke (please don't)

One age to do everything. 18 is 'Adult', that means no age restriction beyond that. At least until you get to retirement age.

[–] sweng@programming.dev 9 points 1 day ago (23 children)

What is that based on, though? Why a single age for everything, when it might make sense to have it more "targeted". For example, wouldn't it make sense to allow voting in local elections, where things are usually simpler and cause and effect clearer, at a younger age?

Similarly, why tie drinking regulations, which are based on physiology, to voting age, which has nothing to do with it? You may say it's because if the person is mature enough to vote they can decide themselves, but there is a huge amount of things I'm not allowed to buy or consume even if I'm allowed to vote, so that argument doesn't hold (unless you advocate 100% liberalization of everything).

Having just a single age limit just makes it all seem very arbitrary, which it shouldn't be.

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[–] NONE_dc@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

En verdad no tengo problemas con la edad para votar actual.

Estoy convencido, como alguien ya adulto que pasó por la adolescencia, de que los adolescentes no tienen idea de que es lo que quieren en la vida, son muy volubles y manipulables y no es hasta que llegan a la adultez que pueden empezar crearse una idea de cuáles son sus ideales politicos. Vamos, incluso los adultos no lo tienen muy claro hasta que están más cerca de los 30 que de los 20, pero aumentar la edad de votación hasta las 30 o más sacaría a muchos de votantes de la ecuación, la mayoría de ellos gente con ideas progresistas.

Los 18 quizá no sea ideal, pero es aceptable. Hablas de Greta, por lo que he leído recientemente ella a sus dieciocho ha madurado aún más sus ideas, dándose cuenta de que los problemas son más sistemático, algo de lo que quizá no era consciente a sus 16. En lo personal, hay un montón de cosas que no consideraba a mis 16 que no fue hasta mis 22, cuando pude votar por primera vez, que me di cuenta de ellas.

[–] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 3 points 18 hours ago

I think rhe voting age should be the lower of the minimum age to labor or the age of potential conscription less the age of the longest-term official whoss job includes sending people to war.

In the USA, that would put the voting age all the way down to 12. And having both been 12 myself once and having close family who were recently 12, I'm entirely OK with that.

[–] schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 19 hours ago

I live in a country where the voting age is 16. It used to be 18 and I don't think this change has caused many concrete policy changes: young people aren't big or unified enough a voting bloc to meaningfully affect the results.

I tend to be in favor of letting young people have more rights at a younger age in general (in part because I remember being young and not seeing any good reason why I shouldn't), so I'm definitely not in favor of raising it to 18 again or further.

[–] Hildegarde@lemmy.world 7 points 23 hours ago
[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 25 points 1 day ago (13 children)

Man, it's a tough one.

In theory, nobody should be disenfranchised by age at all. But at what age would they be able to vote, as in understand what to do, how to do it, and do so without adult supervision?

Until they reach that point, it's essentially their parents or guardians getting an extra vote.

And then you have to look at other things we limit minors on by virtue of not being able to make informed decisions. So, would we go with driving age, since that's when we trust them with a ton of death machine? Drinking age? Age of consent for sex (which isn't always 18)?

If we change it away from 18 to lower, showing that they have the full rights of any citizen, why don't they get those other rights with enfranchisement? Why is someone able to vote like someone that has the ability to make an informed choice, but they can't drink? Hell, that's already a problem since 18 year olds can be sent to fight and die in the military, but can't have a beer legally.

I would be fine with 16 being the age of majority for everything if the individual wanted it. You wanna step into adult life, with all the rights and responsibilities, I don't have an objection to that at 16. I had too many patients that were married and working before 18 to pretend that it isn't realistic for someone that age to step into adulthood. I don't think it's the best choice, but I wouldn't fight it if the world decided that way.

I could definitely made an informed decision for voting at 16. I had access to alcohol, and was able to make the decision to not use it, same with tobacco. I had access to sex, and made the decision to make it safe sex. I was a decent driver, and didn't have even a fender bender until I was 19, and I wasn't the one that caused it then. All of the stuff that we limit to "adults", I know I would have been fully capable of making informed and conscientious decision about any of them.

But I also knew other teenagers that were absolute morons that couldn't be trusted not to jerk off in the school bathroom. I knew 16 yos that wrecked cars and put other people's lives at risk in the process. So I'm okay with the age of majority being 18 too; some of those morons would just flip a coin for their vote, and the mock votes we'd have in school were laughable across the board.

Not everyone can make an informed and conscientious decision at 30, much less 18.

So I don't really think it needs to change, but I agree with you that it sucks that it's so arbitrary.

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