this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2024
6 points (87.5% liked)

vegan

2546 readers
436 users here now

Please also check out vegantheoryclub.org for a great set of well-run communities for vegan news, cooking, gardening, and art. It is not federated with LW, but it is a nice, cozy, all-in-one space for vegans.

We ask that the you have an understanding on what veganism is before engaging in this community.

If you think you have been banned erroneously, please get in contact with one of the other mods for appeals.

Moderator reports may not federate properly and may delay moderator action. Please DM an active mod if an abusive comment remains after reporting it.

Welcome

Welcome to c/vegan@lemmy.world. Broadly, this community is a place to discuss veganism. Discussion on intersectional topics related to the animal rights movement are also encouraged.

What is Veganism?

'Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals ...'

— abridged definition from The Vegan Society

Rules

The rules are subject to change, especially upon community feedback.

  1. Discrimination is not tolerated. This includes speciesism.
  2. Topics not relating to veganism are subject to removal.
  3. Posts are to be as accessible as practicable:
    • pictures of text require alt-text;
    • paywalled articles must have an accessible non-paywalled link.
  4. Content warnings are required for triggering content.
  5. Bad-faith carnist rhetoric & anti-veganism are not allowed, as this is not a space to debate the merits of veganism. Anyone is welcome here, however, and so good-faith efforts to ask questions about veganism may be given their own weekly stickied post in the future (see current stickied discussion).
    • before jumping into the community, we encourage you to read examples of common fallacies here.
    • if you're asking questions about veganism, be mindful that the person on the other end is trying to be helpful by answering you and treat them with at least as much respect as they give you.
  6. Misinformation, particularly that which is dangerous or has malicious intent, is subject to removal.

Resources on Veganism

A compilation of many vegan resources/sites in a Google spreadsheet:

Here are some documentaries that are recommended to watch if planning to or have recently become vegan:

Vegan Fediverse

Lemmy: vegantheoryclub.org

Mastodon: veganism.social

Other Vegan Communities

General Vegan Comms

!vegan@lemmy.ml

!vegan@hexbear.net

!vegan@vegantheoryclub.org

!vegan@slrpnk.net

Circlejerk Comms

!vegancirclejerk@lemmy.ml

Vegan Food / Cooking

!homecooks@vegantheoryclub.org

!veganrecipes@sh.itjust.works

!recipes@vegantheoryclub.org

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
gredo@lemmy.world
veganmod@lemmy.world
iiGxC@slrpnk.net
veganpizza69@lemmy.world
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
Beaver@lemmy.ca
veganpizza69@lemmy.vg
jerkface@lemmy.ca
Thelemmybud@lemmy.world
6
We can't even talk in this community dedicated to vegans without someone coming along and meatsplaining. (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 months ago by BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world to c/vegan@lemmy.world
26 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
top 26 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] GreyJolly@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

I've definetly heard plenty of people making fun of or discriminating against others with dietary restrictions due to their religions. Hell I've also heard people making fun of others with lactose intolerance or celiac disease...

We can and should strive for better, but sometimes people can just be terrible 🫤

[–] Jerusalemspiderman@lemdro.id 2 points 2 months ago

You don't make fun of halal or kosher? Where's the fun in that?!

[–] lath@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

The screenshot is obviously wrong. People will make fun of anyone for anything, anywhere and anytime. Problem is the disagreement on what's acceptable.

[–] criitz@reddthat.com 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Halal eaters and teetotalers don't try to preach as and convert as often, perhaps?

(I support vegans and I dont mock them, for the record.)

[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 months ago

Halal eaters do try to convert you, but to their religion, not their eating habits.

They are also made fun of for that.

People genuinely don't like to be told what they are doing is wrong.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Why do people call it preaching?

It's baffling that "Hey maybe hamburgers aren't worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?"

Is talked about in the same language as "Invisible sky person is deeply concerned about your masturbating habits and you are going to suffer for it!"

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Why do people call it preaching?

Because despite it being logical to a point, usually the ones who wish to talk about can't actually explain the rationale for some of the more extremely ends of the philosophy.

I'm completely against industrial meat farming, but for instance game meat from deer that were killed for deer management?

Obviously a vegan will take the position that "eating meat is wrong, you're killing just for pleasure" usually. Which obviously isn't true, as there's no "just for pleasure", becsuse we're not talking about trophy hunting, but deer management, which is crucial and without which a lot of animals (and humans) would end up sick, suffering and dying as the ecosystem would overpopulate with deer, leading to a cascade of bad consequences, destroying the environment and the animals in it.

I support vegan products and consider myself a flexitarian, but I do also consume the occasional meat product. Preferably when it's cruelty free game meat.

Sheep are also another thing. Unless we plan to systematically eradicate the species, then we must tend to some sheep at least, which will mean shearing them, as that's required for their health. So then we end up with wool. Should that wool not be used? Would it be cruel to use that wool?

That of course again doesn't mean I'm not fervently against the horrible practices of the large sheep industry. It's just a question of "can't you see the eventual problems that taking a position so extreme would yield?"

And questioning these things can upset people, as it'd require flexing the ideology a bit, and that's something a lot of fervent vegans seem to have issues with. Which is apparent through say, using words like "carnist" to describe anyone who isn't 100% vegan. Almost in the same way dogmatic religions call anyone disagreeing "a heretic".

In the same way that monotheistic Abrahamic religions are, most of the "fighting" rhetoric of vegans is very much dogmatic.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

You've invented a vegan in your head to be smarter than. My vegan stance on culls is found here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/11017095

Context of super necessary (apparently) kangaroo culls.

Species don't suffer, only individuals do. This defense of sheep implies we need to keep breeding pugs, or that if I were to make supersheep who lived ever minute of the day screaming in agony it would be bad to stop breeding them. An absurd stance.

In the interim selling wool creates perverse incentives and if it's a humanitarian effort (so to speak) we should use it for ends which don't profit us.

Your objections are standard and tedious, your examples of extremism in the ideology are actually examples of moderate stances.

I've never met a vegan that finds it morally objectional to scavange meat, assuming you aren't creating perverse incentives. Our objections are to suffering, you should probably stop tilting at strawmen.

[–] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm vegan with a somewhat differing view on culls, having worked for the EPA and with national parks. I agree that a better solution than culling would be ideal, and that no life wants to be killed or population managed. However, we cull because of our past failings. We wiped out natural predators in many areas that kept a balance, and now, if left unchecked, deer will eat themselves into starvation, and devastate their ecosystem. It would be death on a massive scale if unmanaged, and would even affect humans. I think it's a far smaller crime to kill a few deer and manage populations at safe levels, than to allow the mass starvation of entire ecosystems because of our past destruction of that balance.

Better solutions have been proposed. Ideally, where we can, we reintroduce native predators and protect their populations until they're stable. Is that different from killing for population control? We're introducing animals for the explicit purpose of hunting and killing deer in order to keep a balance. If that's wrong, then should we kill all predators? Of course not, but I digress. Those aren't arguments I think you'd make, and I'm not suggesting you'd agree whatsoever, but those are the perspectives we think about. Many many smart people have tackled this issue, and we have not found a better solution than culling. Sometimes, we've done some of what you suggested, and attempted to reduce fertility rates, though I see the same moral issue there as well. No sentient creature wants to be neutered or drugged to prevent reproduction. However, it's better than hunting in certain circumstances, and something has to be done. This isn't a problem that can be ignored to reduce environmental impacts in other areas. Overpopulation will happen, and it is devastating. I wish there was a simple solution, but we made mistakes when we destroyed the native ecosystem, and now it falls to us to keep it from totally collapsing.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But why not humans? and why make a sport of it and celebrate it, why eat them?

Like if species with a tendency to breed to ecosystem collapse should be killed, aren't we top of the list?

[–] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Without getting all Agent Smith about it, yes, humans are an ecological disaster. I'm not trying to throw charged what-ifs back and forth. We solve the problems we can. Can you clarify what you're saying? I agree that no animal should be killed by humans, but I also recognize that we must work with the solutions we have. Are you suggesting that we stop cullings and allow overpopulation to happen?

I strongly agree that hunting should not be a sport. I also believe that if we're going to kill an animal, we should at least use the corpse to feed back into the ecosystem, and I don't begrudge those that eat the things they hunt, if necessary. Many people subsist off hunting to survive, and while I disagree with the concept of hunting another animal for food, I won't suggest that they starve, especially when they're filling a vital ecosystem role. If we don't need the food though, we should not be hunting animals for food. I don't know if my opinion is well founded enough to defend the position that if an animal is killed, tragically necessarily, for culling, it should not be eaten. I believe that to be true, but I can't defend that position with anything but my personal feelings and beliefs. On some level, I understand the argument that if an animal must be killed, then it's wasteful to not use the meat. Regardless of either argument, I strongly disagree with trophy hunting, and find any hunting for sport abhorrent.

I hope you can see the nuanced nature of my position. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or be contrarian. I have a well-formed belief from my experiences, and I am trying to argue my position, and don't think you have to agree with me, nor do I expect you to. I do not see a large scale alternative to culling at the moment. I think those types of alternatives are being pursued by some in the industry, but the scale is small. I also do not believe it's an option to allow populations to grow uncontrollably. I believe allowing that to happen would be as morally reprehensible as hunting for sport, as it's neglecting a duty we have to sustain an ecosystem that we damaged. I am open and interested in any and all alternatives to culling, but I've heard none that haven't been tried or that haven't been able to succeed at scale.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

I went to sleep, I may write something more sensible when I have more patience but I suspect the difference is mostly speciesm. I think we ought not to discriminate in ways we treat species and standards we have about appropriate interventions. I agree that in the short terms there may not be good options but like suppose there are 5 spots on a liferaft and 10 people, that doesn't really make leaving 5 people to drown OK and you defs shouldn't outsource it to random yahoos that enjoy killing people.

Given we can't like distribute condoms and the pill to like kangaroos or deer or whatever there may be no good answers in the short term, but killing should be the absolute last resort. Like we should be closing farms for more land, managing forests for better outcomes, reducing fertility if we can and so on long before we kill. If we do kill we need to make sure it is done with a sole focus on harm reduction, which the way culls are done now is defs not true and we ought to be happy to apply the same reasoning to human beings (basically that we have tried everything else we can and because we can't reason violence is all that's left).

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You're a mod and didn't like the reply so you deleted it.

And you pretend you don't know what I mean when I say some vegans get upset and have issues with replying to these arguments, lol.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

You're welcome to engage in good faith. I have infinite patience for anyone genuinely interested in discussion. It is against the rules of this community to post antivegan rhetoric.

Your initial comment was borderline butI decided to engage in good faith. Then you didn't engage with anything I said and said a few random gotchas. Other mods are welcome to intervene if they felt I removed your comment in error.

If you would like to rephrase your reply and write a better one you are welcome to do so.

[–] sashin@veganism.social -1 points 2 months ago

@Dasus @naevaTheRat Why do you care about this stuff? Why does your energy flow towards arguing specifics with vegans? Go engage with meat eaters that don't care whether or not their food was factory farmed instead.

[–] hamid@vegantheoryclub.org 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

This is why I launched https://vegantheoryclub.org I delete the carnist posts lol

[–] Alliegaytor@vegantheoryclub.org 2 points 2 months ago

!vegan@vegantheoryclub.org

[–] MsSprouts@vegantheoryclub.org -2 points 2 months ago

I support purging animal abuse "content"

[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

As a non vegan. I have the largest respect for you guys. Keep on living the good life. Maybe I can manage to hop over in the future.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I believe in you. It seems way harder than it really is. If you have questions or want recipes or tips or whatever there are armies of us dying to help others live in alignment with their values.

Also like selfishly I found I felt waaaaay better after going vegan. Probs more a side effect of just more whole foods but damned did I feel notably more energic and clear headed.

[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

All the days I have tried vegan, I constantly would have to eat to get full and get energy. So that's why I haven't gone vegan. I feel like you would just need to constantly eat.

[–] naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 months ago

You're probably just not eating rich enough food! If your normal meal is something like say spaghetti bolognese and you take out the beef and cheese and just throw in some lentils for an equivalent mass they have 1/3 the calories! Not to mention cheese is incredibly energy dense.

Usually, proteins tend to work out if you're using lentils/legumes in reasonable amounts. They tend to beat meat on a gram for gram basis just on raw numbers but be much lower energy to make up the difference so you need some fats in there. This is where stuff like nuts and seeds come in.

If you're also suddenly increasing fibre intake that can irritate your gut and make it move stuff a little too fast which can make you feel hungry.

Here are a few cheap and lazy meals that always fill me up. Try them for yourself.

https://www.purelykaylie.com/vegan-moroccan-stew/#tasty-recipes-10125-jump-target

https://thestingyvegan.com/vegan-jambalaya/

https://lovingitvegan.com/vegan-burrito/#recipe (lazy in big batches anyway)

https://www.veganricha.com/grillable-veggie-burger/#recipe

https://thewoksoflife.com/buddhas-delight-lo-han-jai/#recipe (ok this one isn't lazy but it isn't hard and it'd delicious!)

[–] businessfish@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

yeah the hardest part of being vegan is interacting with non vegans. gotta love how the default response to veganism (you know that thing we do to try to better the planet and animal rights and shit) is to argue as if doing something about the issues you care about is a negative trait.

mfs always got something to say and love attacking a thing that as far as i'm aware is proven to be better for personal health, the environment, your wallet, and animals.

[–] BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Honestly I've been so quiet about it offline, and one time I just said no thanks to cake as I don't eat dairy, etc, and the whole room alternately made fun of me and told me why I was wrong and meatsplaines until I got up and left.

[–] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 0 points 2 months ago

Just decline without giving a reason

If pressed, say you don't feel like it

[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com -1 points 2 months ago

to be fair we are made out of meat