this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2024
215 points (94.2% liked)
Science Memes
11130 readers
2911 users here now
Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!
A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.
Rules
- Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
- Keep it rooted (on topic).
- No spam.
- Infographics welcome, get schooled.
This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.
Research Committee
Other Mander Communities
Science and Research
Biology and Life Sciences
- !abiogenesis@mander.xyz
- !animal-behavior@mander.xyz
- !anthropology@mander.xyz
- !arachnology@mander.xyz
- !balconygardening@slrpnk.net
- !biodiversity@mander.xyz
- !biology@mander.xyz
- !biophysics@mander.xyz
- !botany@mander.xyz
- !ecology@mander.xyz
- !entomology@mander.xyz
- !fermentation@mander.xyz
- !herpetology@mander.xyz
- !houseplants@mander.xyz
- !medicine@mander.xyz
- !microscopy@mander.xyz
- !mycology@mander.xyz
- !nudibranchs@mander.xyz
- !nutrition@mander.xyz
- !palaeoecology@mander.xyz
- !palaeontology@mander.xyz
- !photosynthesis@mander.xyz
- !plantid@mander.xyz
- !plants@mander.xyz
- !reptiles and amphibians@mander.xyz
Physical Sciences
- !astronomy@mander.xyz
- !chemistry@mander.xyz
- !earthscience@mander.xyz
- !geography@mander.xyz
- !geospatial@mander.xyz
- !nuclear@mander.xyz
- !physics@mander.xyz
- !quantum-computing@mander.xyz
- !spectroscopy@mander.xyz
Humanities and Social Sciences
Practical and Applied Sciences
- !exercise-and sports-science@mander.xyz
- !gardening@mander.xyz
- !self sufficiency@mander.xyz
- !soilscience@slrpnk.net
- !terrariums@mander.xyz
- !timelapse@mander.xyz
Memes
Miscellaneous
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I think it's interesting to ask whether people in the opt-out countries are really consenting. Can you really say someone has consented if you never actually made the request?
Personally, I don't really see that much value in the affirmative consent of the dead. Viable organs are hard to get, and save lives. I think it's worth it to keep it opt-out.
I agree, but it raises an interesting argument regarding the definition of consent. I don't necessarily believe in free will so I like to mention it in situations where you can easily see that people are more accurately described as reacting to their environment than making any kind of conscious choice.
Simply by changing from opt-in to opt-out, you mostly reverse the observed behavior of a population. Lots of applications for this sort of thinking, like voting for instance.
Germany is currently considering a third way: they ask you.
Everyone in Germany has health insurance, so the idea is that the health insurance simply asks you directly to decide. Most people are in favor of organ donation, but never actually get an organ donor card or talk to their relatives. Asking them to decide won't get anywhere near the donor rates of an opt-out scheme, but it could drastically increase them.
That sounds promising, I think you're right that it would be a significant improvement in donor rates over the opt-in system.
Necrophilia has entered the chat
How do I opt-out?
Cremation
How do I opt in?
This is sloppy, but it's what I have time for atm:
From The Elements of Choice by Eric Johnson
It's more complicated than the one example, and he covers it further, but as a rough guideline, it looks like forced choice and opt out are similar in this case. Which would make sense because the opposition is mostly religious and strict religious people are more motivated to opt out.
Wow, good source. 82% donor rate for the opt-out group versus 79% for the forced-choice is a smaller difference than I would have guessed.
It's a decent book overall. If you're interested in the theory behind choice architecture it's worth a read.
But yeah, read it a couple months ago and remembered it specifically addressed this question.
Yeah, the formulation is a bit off here. With opt-out, you have no way to measure consent, because you can't discern between people who actually consent and those who just haven't opted out, for lack of knowledge or other reasons.
These societies have simply weighed up the two options and decided that saving lives is more important than leaving personal freedom intact at all costs.
We don’t get their consent to be buried or cremated or whatever else people do with the remaining bodies of their loved ones. It’s just opt out. Why should organ donation, which provides a societal and personal benefit be different?
I'm pretty sure people do make their wishes clear regarding their funeral preparations. You can put that kind of stuff in your last will and I would assume it holds some legal weight.
I actually agree that organ donation should be opt-out, but there is an unavoidable argument against that. Namely, the fact that people have the right to opt-out at all implies that you have a responsibility to verify their informed consent before enrolling them in the procedure. At least, that would be the conventional wisdom according to the field of medical ethics.
Yes, you can choose to lay out your wishes. Many do, just like opt in or opt out organ donation. However, if you don't lay out your wishes, you will still end up buried or cremated or something similar without consent.
I'm not saying that's wrong. We can't just leave dead bodies where they lie. It also provides comfort to families to practice burial rites. My point is that technically you are still making decisions about what to do with somebodies body parts without consent, as they can no longer consent. Is there really a difference? If they care that much, will they just opt out?
I know some countries, they used to let you specify which organs, but then people opted out of eyes. So they removed the option and it was just donor or not. People still consented, without opting out of eyes. Is that better, or is that manipulating consent?
That's a good point, you're right.
That's interesting about the eyes, I'm honestly not sure what to say about that.
In most (all) European states you actually get a state mandated ID card, which has an expiration date. So the consent can be formed while filling out the formular to get a new ID.
Ok but for most people it doesnt really matter with a dead body. If you opt out because of religion its okay have it your way but other than that its not like it matters, youre dead.