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I'd probably lay the majority at their feet. between turning the region into a war zone, starvation etc, the chances of them surviving the situation is close to zero. as far as wikipedia is concerned out of the 251 hostages.....
so frankly Israel's track record here for 'rescuing' the hostages is pretty abysmal. and I can't think of a worse way than to turn a region into a war zone to rescue them. so far it looks like hamas has been fairly willing to negotiate prisoner releases. who knows if thats still the case though. since you know we killed off the leader who was looking to get a peace deal. but I doubt many more are going to be returned alive after this. I feel for those families and its unfortunate their countries leadership is going to get most of them killed.
but at the end of the day it doesn't matter who killed those hostages. they're dead and nothing will change that. all I know is turning the region into a blood bath didn't help their chances.
How many of these people do you think would be dead if Hamas hadn't kidnapped them?
How many people was Israel holding prisoner indefinitely and without charge or access to any representation? I'll answer that for you, a bit over 12000.
How many of those killed on Oct 7 were killed by Israeli forces?
How many innocents have been raped or murdered in isralei custody?
How many dead journalists? Doctors? Aid workers? How many utilities workers (6 more mudered yesterday). Say what you want, each and every one of those deaths is a war crime.
How many attacks on the UN and UN workers?
Israel has far far dirtier hands than anyone else so I dont think you get to self righteously open with, "How many of these people do you think would be dead if Hamas hadn’t kidnapped them?".
Ridiculous nonsense.
Those are all valid points, most of which I can agree with. But that doesn't mean that Hamas was helping us build a better world when they went on their killing and kidnapping spree. They wanted to restart the hostilities and that's not some noble goal that should make us lie about what they did or act like they're not responsible for the deaths of those they took.
agreed, but you put people in a murderous pressure cooker and keep turning up the heat and it'll expode. Thats part of the burden of being in charge. It speaks to motive and I asribe a lot of the blame to Israel for what happened on Oct 7. You dont oppress people to that level for 80 years and then act surprised when they lose their minds over it.
Sure, but people that pull this argument almost always refuse to look at history from the Israeli side. I'm leaving out the pro-Arab arguments for this purpose but bear with me for what is always conveniently forgotten when lemmings say "they deserved it":
The Gaza strip only came under Israeli control in '67, so in reality the 80 years you mention are 56 years.
From '67 to '91, people could travel freely between Gaza and Israel. After the violence of the First Intifada, this changed, and Israel started requiring personal permits to make sure people coming to Israel had legitimate business there.
The escalations in violence led to the Oslo accords. Groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad vowed to continue the violence until Israel was destroyed, and torpedoed the accords from their side with a series of deadly suicide bomb attacks on public buses in Israel. This led Israel to further tighten the border checkpoints.
Israel withdrew from within Gaza and following the 2007 takeover by Hamas, practically closed the border except for work and medical reasons.
The blockade mostly stopped ground attacks, but Hamas switched their MO to firing missiles. This led to Egypt and Israel progressively tightening their blockade to stop these weapons from being smuggled into Gaza. And Israel to work on a very expensive missile defense, and Israelis living within rocket distance to have to run to shelters almost daily.
And as the daily rocket attacks didn't bring any improvement for Hamas, they planned for the oct 7 attacks.
As I said the above story is onesided, but when I ask someone what else Israel should have done to stop Hamas from wanting to destroy them, the answer always boils down to "don't exist".
Lol. Well they were alive until Israel started genociding so likely all of them? They gave no value dead.
Frankly it doesn't matter Hamas and Israel government are shit groups that have been killing each other for decades. We never should have created Israel in the first place. It was doomed to bloodshed from the moment it was thought of.
The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is now. Take your Zionist bs elsewhere.
I don't know about you but I never created Israel. The ones that invented and created it did so to escape bloodshed, so I don't think they're unwilling to pay the price
Lolol invented israel to eecape blood shed. Thats rich. Because taking one group of religious fanatics and stealing the land of another group of religious fanatics never caused blood shed. Rofl man i havent laughed this hard all week. Thanks.
I'm not sure if you're really willing to open your mind on this, but the first large wave of immigrants were escapees from pogroms in Russia and they didn't 'steal' any land from anyone
ah yes, the classic 'it was their land originally' argument. they had to fight a civil war with the local government and won due to support from western powers.
that not nearly the same thing. as 'peaceful immigration' as you try to imply. I don't particularly care one way or the other, religious fanatics are gonna fanatic. do you have a particular point you were trying to make?
I never said the jewish immigrants from Russia claimed the land was 'theirs originally'. It's a bit weird you make this jump. They were trying to find a place they wouldn't be genocided
And what makes you conclude that violent opposition from muslim fanatics prohibits the immigrants from being peaceful?
its a common refrain. I don't particularly care.
Who invited them to Palestinian? did they have a statue saying 'bring us your tired, your weak, your sick?' why call them violent muslin fanatics and not just Muslim fanatics?
We both know why jerusalum was chosen. because they considered it their holy land. we also both know that immigration is rarely accepted by local populations. just look at our own country (assuming you live in the US).
If you think I care about the palestinians any more than the jews in israel you're incorrect. I care that American weapons and funds are committing a genocide, and act clearly prohibited by our laws. I care very deeply that both sides stop killing each other. Did you know that the biden admin, and the saudis were close to having an agreement to create a palestinian state and normalize relations with israel and the suadis on oct 6 just prior to the attacks? I wonder why hamas attacked, I wonder why bibi is going on a rampage. both parties that benefit from tense relations.
Can you imagine what might have happened in bibi just took the hit and tried to work it out peacefully? can you imagine if biden put his foot down just once early on and forced them to?
I don't give a shit who threw the first punch generations ago. what matters is the actions that are being taken today. I fear now we're another 4 generations away from peace.
I think they would just be emboldened to do it again, like they said they would. Sentiment in Gaza has only recently shifted to the idea that "maybe, it wasn't such a good plan". I'm afraid that in the long run, Bibi's reaction might turn out to be the best one for peace