mandatory voting
what the fuck lmao? where did this come from, genuinely asking this is so authoritarian and out of place among the rest of the stuff
this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2024
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Nothing screams authoritarianism quite like having to spend 10 mins at a local school on a Saturday, once every couple of years, and drawing a big old big on the ballot paper.
my comment was a genuine question please respect that.
what is the method of enforcement? like if it’s prison, or even time in court. yeah that’s weird and it gives authoritarianism vibes.
if it’s a fine, what is the price point? what about those who cannot afford to travel to vote nor to pay? and what is stopping the wealthy from just paying the fine and skipping elections anyway?
or like what other options of enforcement are there? i just don’t think making voting mandatory is at all needed to ensure free and fair elections and it just has an icky vibe to it.
edit: also you say “every couple years.” are you aware that elections are held several times per year in most parts of the US? or are we just making federal elections mandatory?
edit 2: you say “10 minutes.” when waiting times for voting of 30 minutes or even an hour are not rare. so what is the solution there?
edit 3: what about individuals whose religious convictions forbid them from participating in polls? does this not violate their constitutional rights?
edit 4: doing my due diligence and found that…
We empirically explore the effects of a sanctioned compulsory voting law on direct-democratic decision making in Switzerland. We find that compulsory voting significantly increases electoral support for leftist policy positions in referendums by up to 20 percentage points. (Michael M. Bechtel, Dominik Hangartner, Lukas Schmid)
…which is cool and admittedly something i was unaware of. nevertheless i still find that the means of obtaining this end questionable.
Jail time? Tell me you're American without telling me you're American... I happen to be one of the dozens of people who do not live in the US, so my state and local elections are at the same time, and federal is usually in between. They group them together because efficiency. Pretty sure the penalty in every developed economy is a small fine equivalent to a parking ticket. I don't know exactly, because I've been postal voting for a decade due to my debilitating case of "religious reasons", so I get my ballot in the mail a week in advance, and If I didn't want to vote I'd just mail it back empty (free fyi). I also voted from my phone at a foreign airport one time. Pretty sure I've missed one too, and know several people in their 40's and 50's who've never enrolled, never voted, and never been fined. Turns out "mandatory" is pretty loose when you aren't living in a dictatorship.
The argument FOR mandatory voting is to encourage political parties to reach out and engage all adults (e.g. "we the people"), instead of focusing their policies, campaigning, and financing on specific subsets of the population, or specific geographies (e.g. electoral college), or engage in other methods like voter disenfranchisement, etc, etc — basically to mitigate against the USA's brand of bastardized anti-democracy, and authoritarianism, from happening.
so… mandatory voting for you isn’t actually mandatory voting, it’s in fact a much broader series of measures aimed to reduce obstacles to voting and putting the onus of the election on the government rather than the people. got it, and i like that.
heads up that other comments here swayed my opinion but yours have been truly just disrespectful and unhelpful.
Proponents of mandatory voting also tend to be supportive of other voting reforms which would make it faster and easier to vote. For example, vote by mail and removing the selective service requirement for men. With some properly implemented reforms, the time it takes to vote could easily be reduced to ten minutes or less.
Mandatory voting would also push the responsibility of ensuring that people have an opportunity to vote on the government, which is really how it should be anyway, but it behooves the powers that be to keep turnout lower. At least in theory, this would obviously need to be codified.
As for religious exemption, I think most mandatory voting advocates would only want to require that every citizen turn in a ballot, but not that it be filled out in any particular way. An objector could turn in a blank ballot or write in a fictitious candidate by that standard. They would have no real sway on the political state, so unless they have a religious objection to filing paperwork they don't have much to complain about. Even so, there could easily be a way to allow people to apply for an exemption.
Your right about punishments being a fraught subject here, though I think everyone's on the same page about them being pretty light. A "realistic" (this whole thread is pretty unrealistic) implementation would probably involve some minor penalty on your tax returns, though personally I'm not happy with that solution.
The point is to push the onus of providing voting opportunities on the government, and increase overall turnout. As I can anecdotally attest, and as you seem to have found on your own, people who don't vote often do have strong opinions. They either don't vote out of laziness or a lack of access. Mandatory voting would fix the former and would necessarily be bundled with legislation to fix the latter.
thanks. i like your framing of putting the onus of voting opportunities on the government. and i think that any good election reform process would implement CV as the last step of a series of careful and intentional change; it doesn’t really fit as one of three “quick fixes” to voting opportunities, hence my initial reaction.
appreciate your response!
I think I have a solution, hear me out: The penalty for missing a mandatory vote is you don't get to vote.
incredible, i agree.
Australia has had mandatory voting for eligible voters (18+) for a long time. It works like this:
Prior to elections, the Australian Electoral Commission updates the electoral roll of all eligible voters. On election day, voters have their names crossed off the roll at whichever polling place they attend.
After the election, the electoral roll is cross-checked against voter records. Anyone who didn't vote and can't provide a valid reason (for example - illness, living remotely, religious beliefs) is issued a $20 fine by the AEC. If not paid, this can escalate to further fines of around $180 plus court costs if convicted.
Over 180,000 penalty notices were issued after the 2022 federal election to enforce the compulsory voting laws. While controversial to some, the system has maintained over 90% voter turnout in Australia for nearly a century.
A similar system would probably moderate political extremes in the US. I think any fine that is used as a means of enforcement needs to be scaled to the means of the individual being fined in order to not disproportionately target lower wealth individuals (but an elimination of the enforcement fine completely for the lower end of the wealth scale would maybe ironically result in less from that group voting and thus give them disproportionately lower representation in outcomes).
thanks for this, provided a lot of insight. for those interested, $20 AUD = $13.06 USD.
i find that this change only might be useful in the US, especially if introduced gradually and after other measures such as a voting holidy (very important!) and vote by mail rather than all-at-once, but i think is less tenable as a position than in Australia due to the following differences:
- class: the USA generally has a significantly larger wealth gap than Australia; this directly relates to the fee and i agree with your assessment that any fines should be appropriately scaled; still a concern
- staus quo: the longevity of the policy indicates that the country has the voting infrastructure to handle a 100% turnout without unintentional disenfranchisement, long travel times or long wait times
- population distribution: this is a lot different in the US and again affects infrastructure. we already know that low income areas are subject to the worst of wait times, travel times, and environmental conditions while voting so it’s super important to be concious of what CV is doing for those populations. vote by mail aids this but is still a concern.
conclusion: compulsory voting, in my opinion, should not be on this list because it is nowhere near as effective nor feasible as the other election measures already listed.
How about a wall around the crazy states, everyone can go and come for some years, after that, close it. Let them drown in guns and bubbles, I say. - a joke, apparently. I like the list, maybe fight all the cults where old guys marry several underaged girls, too. Oh yeah, they still exist.
re: wall
careful lol i recognize this is a joke coming from a good place probably but this is verging on a fascist talking point. trans people being abused by the florida government and children being murdered in texas schools have a right to safety, not to be simply ignored with the opportunity to abandon their home in a few years.
Three the most important things are missing:
- abolish home education;
- mandatory elementary education;
- get rid of multiple-choice tests.
Most of the changes won't matter if people are uneducated or easily misled.
wonder if there is evidence that these steps are effective at improving education outcomes?
- ranked choice voting - ok I think we can agree here
- Mandatory voting - how? Currently voting is handled state by state, you want to make the federal government take that over? What would the punishment be for not voting? Frankly I disagree with this
- Universal vote by mail - even more how? Again, federal takeover of voting process? How do you ensure no votes are lost especially when someone will be punished for not voting?
- Voting day national holiday - definitely agree.
- Legalize marijuana - this takes a lot more than just saying "marijuana is legal now." Are previous marijuana related convictions going to be overturned, if so how? Are marijuana sales going to be regulated? If so how?
- Legalize prostitution - similar questions as with marijuana
- Revert citizens United - certainly agree here but that's a big fuckin how? It was explicitly the supreme court overruling a law passed by Congress. Amend the Constitution to say something explicit?
- Abolish corporate home ownership - very strange stuff here because you start touching on the above, too. Maybe more you're looking to cancel corporate personhood but that comes with a huge amount of problems too
- Abolish electoral college - sure why not if you've solved the voting issues above
- Abolish gerrymandering - this is what made me make this response in the first place. You can't just say "abolish gerrymandering" without some plan for it. That's like saying "abolish borders" like it's meaningful. How? Who decides what districts look like? Will there still be districts? If not how will representation be determined?
- Abolish filibuster - I think the filibuster is fine. If everything else on this list goes through, hopefully we have meaningful ways of ousting useless obstructionist politicians instead
- Merge Senate into house - why? What does this solve?
- Remove house rep cap - FUCKING agreed. The cap is unconstitutional and absurd
- Universal healthcare - lots of hows here too but Obamacare was a good start and I'm down with single payer
- Universal basic income - how much? Does it count toward the 50k below?
- Income up to $50k untaxed - fine. I also think any monetary amount in the legislature should be increased by the CPI automatically every year. Fines, limits, payouts, etc.
- Ban tax prep - hmm ok
- IRS files taxes for citizens - how does this work? Is tax code flattened to make it so citizens have no choices to make? Do things like tax credits for buying solar panels go away?
- Vat for luxury items - who decides what's luxury?
- Supreme Court 15 year limit - disagree, the whole point of lifetime terms is to prevent getting what's yours and getting out.
- Increase highest bracket tax - sure why not
- Collateral for loan is realized gain - expand?
- Abolish PACs and lobbying
- Politicians banned from stocks - so they can't own shares of any companies? Or they just can't trade while in office? Does this go for any elected official? More than just elected officials?
- Municipalize Internet - at a minimum declare it a utility. What's the rest of the plan?
- Abortion constitutional right - I'd argue it already is one, though the supreme Court evidently isn't in agreement. An explicit "bodily autonomy" amendment would be nice. Add a right to privacy to that too, expanding on the 4th.
- Ban tipping - idk if I agree with trying to codify what should be a cultural change, but I'm generally on board with the Idea. There's a million loopholes to close in any language to this effect
- free financial education - just like... Government funded seminars? Mandated high school courses? What do you take out to fit this in?
a lot of your questions boil down to “how” and no hate but it’s just funny to witness lemmy discovering what drafting legislation looks like
Should also include "tax the church"
I will consider this for v4, although I'm still torn on whether that's a good idea. It would give religious entities a direct reason to influence politics even more. Any good reasons to the benefit other than more tax revenue?
It would give religious entities a direct reason to influence politics even more.
They're already influencing politics, and there's nothing being done to stop them. There's no reason to believe that they will stop or slow down.
Yea after more research this is the conclusion I've come to. I think ending the tax-exempt status of religious entities is the best solution to stop the problem.
i think there is potential to do one better and find a more productive solution. start a crackdown, investigate religious entities that are clearly making a profit from rental land. threaten them with removal of tax exemption. investigate institutions that participate in political activity. threaten them with taxes.
if the IRS would start doing this for all the ultra wealthy, this will be a natural antecedent to that process.
i don’t see why it has to be an all or nothing deal, unless i am missing something huge.
Nope, that would be definitely seen as religious persecution. Only way is to equally end all religious tax exemptions simultaneously.
oh sorry there’s another key fact to this, religious institutions are tax exempt under 501(c)(3) in the same way as all other charitable organizations.
so going after “religious organizations” already means you are going to have to define which 501c3s are “allowed” or not—and unfortunately there’s a lot of crossover of semi-but-not-really religious groups. so any attempt at un-tax-exempting churches is going to look like persecution to some because the line is going be drawn somewhere. think of yoga or mindfulness studios, plenty of which are 501c3. are they religious? well, yeah, often. all of them? certainly not. so how do you choose? in any raw “tax the church” scenario you end up litigating what consitutes “religious” or not—which looks like ( and arguably might be) proto-persecution.
so, investigate the profit. publish the documents showing a church breaking its 501c3 requirements. give them 180 days to knock it off or something, then tax them like the rest of us. you’ll probably also catch some non-religious 501c3s doing shady stuff as well—and all the better.
hope this makes sense.
edit: i guess the other assumption i made is that we don’t want to just… tax all non profits. i hope we both can agree that would be shitty lol.
edit 2: ok you don’t make that assumption, so there we go.
think of yoga or mindfulness studios, plenty of which are 501c3
They shouldn't be tax exempt either. If they generate profit, they should pay tax on it. Subsidies are used to benefit specific activities, and they are easier to investigate for fraud as to whether the subsidy is spent as intended.
exactly, yes, we agree.
if they generate profit, they should pay tax on it. boom bap done. 👏
I think we agree to an extent, but I now believe that we should end tax exempt status completely. Remove (Title 26, Subtitle A, Chapter 1, Subchapter F - Exempt Organizations) from the U.S. Code entirely. There are too many convoluted exceptions, and it generally doesn't benefit citizens to pick and choose who pays tax and who doesn't depending on what they do.
understood! i think you may have lost me and a lot of people there though. non profits do a lot of good and their exemptions are a key part of incentivising that good.
I dont understand why Americans are horny for mandatory voting. Voting is mandatory in Greece, it makes no difference. It is theoretically illegal to not vote but are you going to imprison people for not voting? So it isnt enforced, at all.
No one is voting because it is mandatory. Greece has 60% participation.
Does your legal system work on imprisonment or nothing at all? Sounds very extreme.
Here it’s a small fine, but it’s also a day off and takes like 20 mins to go do plus you can get a delicious sausage. So it’s a no brainer that people go vote.
Greece is a pretty failed state from what I’ve seen, wouldn’t read too much into what they don’t do.
As for why compulsory voting, it helps moderate extremism and represents most of society as a whole.
it helps moderate extremism and represents most of society as a whole.
thoughts on Selb and Lachat, 2009?:
In particular, the analyses suggest that CV compels a substantial share of uninterested and less knowledgeable voters to the polls. These voters, in turn, cast votes that are clearly less consistent with their own political preferences than those of the more informed and motivated voluntary voters. Claims that CV promotes equal representation of political interests are therefore questionable.
Instead of banning tipping, the law should maybe require to include all costs. This should not just apply to stuff served, but anything.
Banning tipping in restaurants implies that servers would need to be paid a fair wage without needing tips to make up for a lack of wages. Menu prices would incorporate those costs. Tipping in restaurants is the most invasive which is why I chose restaurants specifically.
So instead of banning tipping you mean removing minimum wage exceptions for tipping.
Fwiw a lot of restaurants worldwide are starting to include an obnoxious 12+% "service charge" that can be "removed" if you have a complaint. Basically, enforced tipping that wouldn't be changed by your "ban tipping" plan.
I definitely agree hard with more emphasis on removal of after-the-listed-price fees
you are correct. “ban tipping” is not an actionable platform and leaves too many variables up for abuse.
Honestly at this point the only thing you are keeping is the English language.
The United States does not have an official language. English is the most widely used language in the U.S., and some states designate it as their official language. usa.gov
There's the gerrymandering thing though. When done in good faith it can give a voice to minorities. When done in bad faith... well, you've seen what happens. Point is it's a double edged sword.
Sure, but be careful with "universal basic income" ,"taxes" and actual national expenses.
What you have there is a wish list. It's a good wishlist, but an actual plan requires planning. Including how the math works out. Which can be done, but you still need to do it.
Would make more sense if abortion was banned except in circumstances where the mother's life is in danger or rape
People who dont want children should not have one. It is that simple. You want less abortions? More education and cheap and available contraception is the way. People won't magically want to have more kids if you force them to birth one.
#1. Truly abolish slavery. #2. Change the legal system from punishment to rehabilitation. #3. Congress gets minimum wage. #4. Minimum wage and unemployment must be a livable wage.
Congress gets minimum wage
Only works in a country where politicians can't enrich themselves through heredity or graft. As it stands, the bulk of a Congressman's fortune accrues before (family/career) or after (lobbyist/book deals) they take high office.
Unfortunately, there is no perfect system when humans are involved. We'll either fuck it up or change our minds on what is perfect.
A perfect system would necessarily be mutable. If we couldn't fuck it up, it wouldn't be perfect, just rigid and unforgiving.
No employee, owner, shareholder, investor, contractor, etc. can make more than 50 times the amount of the lowest paid employee, contractor, supplier employee, supplier's supplier employee, etc. (Including all of the foreign slaves).
Tim Cook wants to earn 50M per year? Then all of those Foxconn guys that they need nets to stop from suiciding need to make at least 1M. All of the guys making chips have to make 1M. All of the guys mining coal to produce the electricity have to make 1M.
Income inequality problems would be abated. "Dey took our yobs." would be less of a problem because you would save money by using local labor due to lower shipping costs. Poverty would eventually be eliminated.
Probably communism with extra steps, but maybe it would be less prone to party dictators.
No employee, owner, shareholder, investor, contractor, etc. can make more than ~~50~~ 1 times the amount of the lowest paid employee, contractor, supplier employee, supplier’s supplier employee, etc