this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024

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513

How can I vote for Kamala Harris if she supports Israel’s war? Here is my answer | Bernie Sanders (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 6 days ago by silence7@slrpnk.net to c/politics@lemmy.world

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[–] GrymEdm@lemmy.world 226 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (5 children)

This is persuasion done correctly. "I understand how you are feeling. Israel's crimes and US support of them should be important to all of us. You aren't wrong to have your reservations, and I agree change is needed. That being said, please let me tell you why it's important to participate." No insults, readily apparent empathy, and a sound argument.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 86 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (13 children)

People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.

The message isn't the thing. It is the speaker. Because even the tankiest of tankies are going to be wary of insulting Sanders in front of their audience. And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.

[–] GrymEdm@lemmy.world 29 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (22 children)

Edit: I'm changing my stance on how common this is after a few hours looking at top election posts and comments across boards. The abuse definitely exists, but in most places it WASN'T at the top. While "vote bullying" happens, I was wrong about how much support it gets. I'm happy to be wrong and glad to see that people usually are pretty decent about presenting their arguments. I still think OP's article shows how people should be convinced.

I get what you are saying and half-agree. ~~Where I respectfully disagree is that people have always been this reasonable.~~ By writing "this is how it's done correctly, with respect and logic" I'm juxtaposing Sen. Sander's approach vs. "vote with us or else you're -insert insult here-" posts, comments, and memes. I've seen ~~tons of~~ some attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right that ~~some~~ most have always tried to be empathetic and civil.

I also agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I'm a consciously "have no heroes" person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I'll agree with all the time.

[–] Wrench@lemmy.world 17 points 6 days ago (19 children)

Eh. It started respectful, but dealing with the same tired "never genocide" canvassing of every single election thread gets old. And the people making those arguments know exactly what they're doing.

Do you expect the opposition to fall over themselves to be respectful and accommodating while the other is not playing by the same rules?

Does that remind you of something the Dems were very heavily criticized for doing in the recent past?

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[–] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 18 points 6 days ago

And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.

Good call. When your "role model" (for lack of a better term) takes a position on something, it tends to give it more credence to the target audience.

I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders, so his words carry some weight with me. He is being a voice of reason.

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 days ago (3 children)

I’ve seen threads from only hours ago where lemmygrad denizens were shitting on Sanders as far too conservative. Like… honestly, at this point, I think many people in that crowd are just leaning into being agitprop trolls for t3h lulz, or something like that. It’s deeply stupid imo, but they seem to not care.

[–] Fester@lemm.ee 17 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The tankies on Lemmy are not the progressives that Sanders is speaking to.

Those progressives feel disenfranchised by Democrats and will rightly drop support for the “moderate” candidate next time there’s an election where the alternative is not a mask-off fascist. Some of them might do it this year, unfortunately. Maybe this is their first time voting, and they’re struggling with settling for the lesser evil. Maybe they’ve been doing it all their life and they’re tired of it. They’re the ones Sanders is trying to persuade.

Tankies, on the other hand, don’t actually give a fuck about their own moral arguments. They would be in Gaza murdering Palestinians with their own hands if they thought it would accelerate the collapse of the US and the rest of the western world. But why get your hands dirty when Trump can drop MOABs because of “the power” or whatever dumb shit he’s going to do. They hope Trump wins so that China and Russia will need to rescue the world from a fascist dictator in the US. They’re hoping for a new world order - like what the allies did after they defeated nazi germany.

It’s easy to confuse them around here because there are so many tankies among the well-meaning progressives getting swept up by tankie opportunism.

[–] HuntressHimbo@lemm.ee 11 points 6 days ago (2 children)

This is where I'm at. I've been open that I'm voting for Kamala, but people are literally posting that she has "no scandals" unironically, and will call you a Russian bot or a Trump supporter for disputing that. It's absolutely unhinged, and does nothing for her election.

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[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 18 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Pfft.

Just had someone tell me that Bernie is too old and can't think any more.

They just want an excuse to get noticed and pretend to be badass.

[–] GrymEdm@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I really wish the USA was just seeing the end of a double-term Bernie presidency. I'm not dumb enough to pretend that it would have all been roses and prosperity (especially with the pandemic), but missing the setbacks of that 1st Trump presidency alone would have been pretty great. I -think- I'd prefer a younger president, but if an older president had to be chosen then Bernie seems articulate and compassionate.

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[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 32 points 5 days ago (4 children)

AOC had a similar response on Pod Save America.

You win political influence by being a crucial part of a win. You lose political influence if your political opponents are in office. The best chance to have your voice heard on Israel is being a crucial part of a Harris win.

That is the calculation.

[–] meep_launcher@lemm.ee 13 points 5 days ago

Yep.

I would recommend folks watch this 20 minute video on Rules for Rulers from CGP Grey.

Despots, Presidents, CEOs, Deans, Homeowners Association Presidents, the guy who runs the open mic- at the end of the day they have to follow the same rules to maintain their power. The zero'th rule in the video is "without power, you affect nothing".

I'm voting for Kamala, and I'm voting down ballot for any pro-palestine candidate. I want to send the message that in order to get reelected, she will need to change her stance.

When I see people not voting out of protest, they are giving their opposition the influence over their elected officials. Remember, they work for you, and voting is how you let them know what you want.

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 61 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Finally! Not the video link! Thank you!

[–] hohoho@lemmy.world 11 points 6 days ago

That was my bad. Thank you for everything you do!

[–] arin@lemmy.world 44 points 6 days ago

I love Bernie. Clearest speaker ever

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 days ago (1 children)

No amount of endorsement or support will ever stop the democrats from shitting on bernie. Bernie doesn't even want to replace capitalism, he wants to save capitalism from itself. But even that is way over the line for blue conservatives.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 5 days ago

Bernie doesn’t even want to replace capitalism, he wants to save capitalism from itself.

Roosevelt style liberalism only works when you have a full blown leftist movement to triangulate against. Sanders doesn't have anything like that to leverage. There is not Eugene Debbs running from prison with a million voters backing him up.

Of course, it should be noted how much Harris lags Dems in every swing state. He's really hauling dead weight here. And it's not helping his own popularity.

[–] VintageTech@sh.itjust.works 13 points 5 days ago (4 children)

It is of my opinion that individuals that don't vote in the upcoming election are complacent to the atrocities occuring.

I feel that this occupation is just repeating every few years since '87.

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[–] ChowJeeBai@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago

This is what thinking people do, given the cureent choice. Good on Bernie! Shame on the narrow minded twits.

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