this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2024
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politics

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Following News, I made a change to the "no trolling" rule in Politics and World (rule 4 for Politics, 5 for World)

"Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off."

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[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 2 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

So the new rule is to let trolls do what they want, invisibly to the people who care most about that -- because the rule is literally to have to block them? This is fucked up.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Nope, reported comments will be addressed as usual.

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

With all due respect, that did not happen with UM for months and far longer with linkerbaan.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Because they walked a fine line. Bans don't happen on presumptions.

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 3 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

You can't blame the community here for being kind of frustrated with this response. Many people reported trolling behavior for a long time before that ban finally happened. If the things I reported them for myself aren't trolling then I don't know would qualify as trolling.

Several other instances banned UM for trolling long before .world did. Because it wasn't unclear.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 0 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

The best we can we do is watch and look for an excuse!

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

An excuse NOT to ban them? That seemed to be the process. And now you've told us to just report and block them.

If hundreds of reports did nothing for weeks about the most obvious troll I've ever seen, I have no faith at all that reporting and blocking trolls will help the fediverse in the least. They will be free to run their election interference campaigns just like on Facebook.

I know modding isn't easy but Jesus this case surely was. No fucking way anyone believed he wasn't a troll if they actually looked at their activity.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -1 points 53 minutes ago (1 children)

No, an excuse TO ban them. Bans happen for cause and it took a long time for the cause to be evident.

If I were capricious as you want me to be, I'd ban you for arguing with me, but that's not going to get anyone anywhere.

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 3 points 50 minutes ago
[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 4 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Here is a gem of a DM from the troll who led to this even-more-hands-off approach, bragging about how they will get away with their influence/troll campaign scot-free.

Notice the use of the word "we", a tacit admission that they are working in coordination with other trolls. Pretty fucking great, eh?

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

DMs are outside the purvey of community mods, if you get a problematic DM, there's a report feature that goes direct to the admins of their instance and your instance.

In Boost, the lemmy client I use, it's a long-press on the DM to get to the reporting menu.

The official stance with trolls is "report, don't engage".

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 2 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

So no reaction at all to the fact that UM is now admitting to being part of a larger troll effort, after dozens of people told you that was likely, for weeks, and you dismissed all of them repeatedly?

Seems like we were all right and UM should've been banned long ago. Everyone who said they weren't a troll was entirely wrong. That doesn't seem to be acknowledged here at all.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 0 points 54 minutes ago (1 children)

Read what he wrote, he's talking about alts, not a larger troll effort, and, yeah, he's yanking your chain. Any number have alts were already banned, but we aren't going to just ban someone because of "feels". There has to be more to it than that.

[–] pooperNickel@lemm.ee 3 points 47 minutes ago (1 children)

You had dozens of people telling you what he was doing. It had zero to do with vague feelings and practically nothing to do with his opinions, despite that always being the claim. It had to do with very obvious trolling. If I get banned for "sassing" you, that will say a lot

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -1 points 19 minutes ago

Dozens of people saying something doesn't make it infringing.

The links he posted were absolutely valid news sources. He responded antagonistcally to comments that were antagonizing (which is why we have the slapfighting rule now).

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So all you need to get a temp ban on someone you disagree with is to make a burner account and provoke them into a slapfight?

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Unless they follow the rules and do not engage.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So one piece of well-placed libel that isn't enough by itself to incur moderation.

Ignoring it lets the libel stand. Ignoring it enough turns the libel into accepted wisdom. Reporting it does nothing because it's not enough by itself. Engaging with it results in repetition of the libel. Few cycles of that, slapfight ban.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

Reporting as misinformation would get libel removed.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 37 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

People do this to draw out subtle trolls into more egregious behavior that might draw actual action from mods. You're saying, then, that you genuinely intend to actually enforce rule 4? Because looking through the modlog, there is virtually zero enforcement of it, despite trolling existing in this community.

Tons of rule 3 enforcement, some rule 1, 2 and 6. Very little rule 4. Now, could we say that low effort and trolling comments are not made on here? I think that's pretty obviously not the case. So ... what's the deal with having the rule then?

You ban for mod criticism and parody accounts more than you ban for low effort or trolling. What's the deal? Is there question about what constitutes trolling? Is it the libertarian lean of a portion of the mod team? Is it just a catch-all rule to allow you to ban people you want to ban but that haven't broken another rule? The ruleset and modding of this community is on the inconsistent side in this regard, and I do think we would benefit from a little more transparency into your thinking and methodology overall.

Ultimately, trolling should be policed, due to the corrosive effect it has on the overall quality of community engagement. When one person is fucking around, other people become less likely to take the activity seriously, this is very natural. Anyone who went to school is probably familiar with the phenomenon. There was even a post in technology the other day about some researchers that got some hard data on the effects of positive and negative feelings of chat room participants towards user behavior, and it matched what I imagine is most people's anecdotal understanding. So, why is anti-trolling enforcement here so lax?

edit: Thread on the research, in case anyone missed it:

https://feddit.org/post/4067200

edit2: Has anyone on the mod team ever been a troll? Ever intentionally engaged in trolling in an online community with a goal of creating negative feelings in its users? If not, that could explain why you have difficulty recognizing the signs.

[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

People do this to draw out subtle trolls into more egregious behavior

What if the person 'drawing out subtle trolls' actually ends up looking like they are, themselves, doing the trolling? After all, they're trying to escalate a situation into being rude, and this tends to occur by being - at the very least - heavily obnoxious.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

More than looking like. It very much is trolling a troll.

[–] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone -3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Then I agree with the mod who says to report and not engage.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I do as well, on the assumption that the mods will take an overall harsher stance on the activity. If enforcement remains lax, though, then nothing will change.

[–] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

So if I see someone that was just blocked posting again under another name. Is it OK to make a comment that points this out?

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Report them, let the mods handle it. Ban evasion = an instance ban which needs the admins.