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Not only that, but it effectively does nothing as Trump will support Israel as well.
And as we've seen with his decision to move the embassy to Jerusalem, his position is even more extreme. Everyone who has paid any attention to his position on such matter should be able to figure out what his response to the current conflict would be. He for sure wouldn't even try to reign Netanyahu in but actively encourage further brutalities. That's exactly the "strong man" bullshit Trump adores.
So even if you really dislike Biden's handling of this whole shit show, you better believe that Trump would be even worse. And that's just the foreign politics part of the Middle East, we all know what harm Trump wants to cause to the US itself.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem was bad because it basically spit in the face of Palestinians - but we are literally supplying bombs that are killing Palestinians right now.
One's a spit in the face. The other is a 2,000lb warhead in the face.
Would Trump have done the same? Probably. But we know for a fact Biden did what he did.
Trump absolutely would support Israel AT LEAST as much as Biden does right now. I mean come on, Israel is killing lots of Muslims, that's something Trump can always get behind.
I used the example of the embassy since it's something previous administrations wouldn't have done as they knew it would only unnecessary put oil into the fire. And Biden damn sure knows this as well. Trump, either didn't care or didn't listen.
if i were a muslim i would not vote for biden. i wouldn't vote for trump either.. but definitely not biden
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that's still better odds
again. we know with 100% certainty biden supports the genocide. even if trump is 95%, that’s still better odds
Then you simply didn't pay attention to Trumps attitude to Muslims in general and advocating war crimes without any impunity. Trump absolutely would be worse than Biden in this situation. He for example for sure wouldn't have made Netanyahu drop the complete blockade of food and water. He would have cheered this cruelty on.
i don't know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy's a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he's totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
i'm not defending trump i'm just saying if i were a muslim and especially if i were a Palestinian i would never vote for biden. it's unforgivable. i support the muslims in michigan. if the democrats want votes, they need to push policies that the people actually want
they can't just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it's getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that's a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
i don’t know what trump would have done. neither do you. the guy’s a bit of a wild card. for example look at russia he’s totally down to just drop the ukraine war. meanwhile biden supports prolonging it however long is necessary
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn't support Ukraine. It's really no secret that he's in Russia's pocket. His attitude towards Muslims also is something he's very open about. Not to mention his love for strong-men wanna be dictators like Netanyahu is well known. To think that he would be better for Palestinians is ridiculous. So no, I'm absolutely certain that Trump would have handled this situation much worse and will handle it worse if he gets into office while it's still raging.
they can’t just expect people to keep voting for them because of the eternal right-wing boogeyman. because it’s getting so bad people are actually starting to wonder if maybe the far-right proto fascist is better and that’s a piss poor state of affairs for a democracy to be in
Then these people are fucking stupid and don't realise how much they have to loose living under fascism. Especially if their Muslims living in the US! The Israel Palestinian conflict is one thing, to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
What are you talking about? Trump obviously wouldn’t support Ukraine
that's what i'm saying. he would drop us's support of the war, likely ending the war sooner. so he's not necessarily a war monger. i don't know for a fact he would support israel's war in gaza. maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't i don't know.
to loose democracy at home is something much worse.
we have already lost democracy if we have no choice but to vote for someone. either way you don't really have a choice. see what i mean? trump and biden are different pathways to the same end game. death of democracy
that’s what i’m saying. he would drop us’s support of the war, likely ending the war sooner. so he’s not necessarily a war monger.
Well yes, in a conflict where he gets orders from Putin to not help, he of course doesn't go to war. But his general attitude to war really isn't a secret. That dude nearly started a war with Iran in his first term for example.
we have already lost democracy if we have no choice but to vote for someone. either way you don’t really have a choice. see what i mean? trump and biden are different pathways to the same end game. death of democracy
No! One candidate has already tried to overthrow an election he lost, the other didn't and has been very outspoken for his support of democracy. If that's really your take away from that then I really have no idea what you did in the last decade. You certainly didn't payed attention to what's going on.
in a conflict where he gets orders from Putin to not help, he of course doesn’t go to war
it's not because he gets orders from putin. it's because he sees the writing on the wall that the war is over and he's trying to get on the right side of history. the war will inevitably end with russia seizing territory. once that happens he can say "i told you so" and seem like he's a peacemaker.
and he can say "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars on ukraine when they are going to lose anyway?" or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars while americans are struggling to make ends meet"? or "why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars supporting a war that is actively raising inflation across the globe, hurting americans?"
he doesn't actually give a shit one way or the other - trump has no ideals or principles. but he's betting that the public opinion against the war will sour soon. and if you look at the polls, that's what is happening. americans are slowly losing their appetite for the ukraine war (republicans at a faster rate, but we're seeing democrats too get war fatigue)
his anti-war stance is one of political opportunism. other politicians would do the same if they weren't beholden to lockheed martin and friends. trump doesn't give a shit about anyone and is willing to throw anyone under the bus and that works to his advantage
That dude nearly started a war with Iran in his first term for example.
the assassination of Soleimani was honestly criminal and stupid and basically ruined any chances for rapprochement with Iran and to top it off Trump killed the Iran nuclear deal. so yeah, i understand and agree with you here
but compare and contrast that situation with what's going on right now. we're 100x closer to war with Iran than we were under Trump. we've intercepted hundreds of missiles and missiles from iranian backed regimes. americans have already died from these attacks. we had to send two aircraft carriers to the middle east - something we didn't even do during the invasion of Iraq
No! One candidate has already tried to overthrow an election he lost, the other didn’t and has been very outspoken for his support of democracy. If that’s really your take away from that then I really have no idea what you did in the last decade. You certainly didn’t payed attention to what’s going on.
i'm not denying that he tried to overthrow the election.
but what is the difference to me if I can't vote versus I can only vote for one guy? there's no functional difference. either way, i have no voice. in that case, maybe it's better it be trump because it's more honest. we're becoming an oligarchic dictatorship regardless of who we elect
Not sure if you're just so damn cynical or are knowingly are pushing Russian propaganda.
But damn dude, Trump and quite a few top Republicans is balls deep into Russia's pockets. That's the reason that they suddenly are actively taking Russia's point of view. Something that 20 years ago never would have been possible.
And sorry, but if you think that the US becoming a full fledged theocratic oligarchic dictatorship than what it is right now then you really didn't think through what that would mean to you and those you love. Their plans regarding abortion and pregnancy prevention alone should be more than enough to point you in the right direction.
I'll admit I am pretty cynical but I have arrived at my positions with reason and lots of reading and analysis. It's not out of the blue and it's not partisan. I don't really care about neither Trump Biden or Russia. I was born in South America in the 90s and grew up in the US as an illegal immigrant and became legal under Trump (citizen now under Biden). I have a different experience of this country compared to you. I also have exposure to different language media that isn't as heavily manipulated on certain topics and exposure to different geopolitical viewpoints.
I think that Putin is a naturally ally for Trump because they are similar strongman leaders. But I do not think that Trump and Co. are beholden to Russia like you claim. Remember that Trump was willing to send weapons to Ukraine that Obama was not - out of fears of potentially angering Russia.
It was Paul Manafort for example who was involved in Ukraine collecting and spending millions of dollars of taxpayer money in order to influence Ukrainian democracy away from Russia and towards the US. A Trump ally.
There's a lot more to this discussion I can share with you if you're curious.
As for your last part - I support abortion and think it's absurd that we are going backwards in time and repealing something we figured out in 1974.
But tell me honestly man - do you believe if Biden were to be elected (which at this point is becoming increasingly unlikely if you are watching the polls) - do you think he will manage to bring abortion back?
Well I don't have your view on GOP/Putin and their relationship to Russia. I think it's very obvious why after hacking both the Democrat and GOP mail servers only the Democrat one were leaked. There has to be quite some juicy stuff the Russian now hold over several major GOP players.
But tell me honestly man - do you believe if Biden were to be elected (which at this point is becoming increasingly unlikely if you are watching the polls) - do you think he will manage to bring abortion back?
Abortion still is around for a lot of states. So at the very least I'm certain that Biden and hopefully a Democrat majority in the Senat will prevent it being banned in the whole country. I mean the Republicans really aren't silent about their plans and that should be important to any sane person. If they get another Trump turn, it will get a lot worse for the US than it ever could under Biden.
...almost as much as Biden helping to fund a genocide on Gaza supports a second Trump term.
I'll still vote for him, cuz lesser evil n' shit, but wagging your finger at voters for drawing the line at genocide is a pretty tone-deaf move.
I mean, it's not drawing the line though. Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be...fine? Certainly not great, but not a disaster. Anyone saying they won't vote for Biden because supporting Israel is over the line is just giving better odds to the guy who is actively enthusiastic about genocide and they know it deep down. I wish we had a candidate that would tell Netanyahu to get fucked and put money into humanitarian relief for Palestinians instead, but that's not the reality we live in.
Both candidates are supportive of Israel, but one is going to be catastrophic for the US and plenty of other countries, while one is going to be…fine?
And even if we just look at the Israel/Palestine policy, it's clear that Trump is worse than Biden. Not because Biden is doing a good job but because Donald "Kill the familes!" Trump is batshit insane on this topic and would advocate for every brutality he could think of. Biden at least tries to reign in the worst Netanyahu tries to do. For example by making him stop the hunger siege. Trump never would do that.
This whole gaza fiasco very well could put trump in the presidential seat again, even though he should be barred as it is stated in the 14th amendment. Yet it doesnt seem to bother biden or the dnc, this is such a clear example of why people think both parties are the same, because if liberals want to be the good guys then they shouldnt be condoning israels mass slaughtering of the people of gaza.
Yeah, from my viewpoint Tlaib and the "uncommitted" campaign are taking the actual steps to try to fix this liability. The voters that need to be convinced just aren't in a position where one more white politician with no credibility tells them they have to. Not voting is the strategically wrong choice, but voters just aren't that objective, and frankly most probably aren't even hearing any of these arguments.
They need to actually change the reality of our support for a genocidal war, not tell people that reality is irrelevant.
Yeah because as a voter we should put principles above everything else and base our decision on single issues... Isn't that similar to what the MAGA crowd is doing?
Sure, the principles are very different. But the outcome is the same: Hurt yourself by ignoring the complexity of a political system and voting against your best interest because you mainly listen to your emotions... I don't get it!
You haven't engaged with a single word from my comment, just repeated the same old "vote" spiel. Your mantra doesn't work. Voters are emotional and tune out people who don't offer anything more to respond to their personal anger than "but it could be worse". You simply aren't going to track down all the disaffected voters and berate them into voting how you think they should objectively vote.
Tlaib and the uncommitted campaign are trying to convince Biden this is a problem that needs addressing. Material change is what can reach the masses, not lectures to political junkies on how the genocide could be worse or how not-voting will get you genocide AND other bad things rather than just genocide.
Maybe I just expect better from people on the left. But you're right.. Why should they be different?
But still. If one cares about one topic so much that they would not vote for someone because of it. Then why would they not go the extra mile and think about what the consequences of their decision will be with regard to that topic? And I don't think that you have to be a political junkie to have such thoughts. It's no rocket science at all.
You're totally right that material change is needed. I just doubt that there's so much Biden can do until next year. Even if such decisions were made right now, it would take a while until the effects would be felt. And if changes are not enshrined in law, they'll be gone soon. But there's no perspective to achieve that as long as you don't control house, senate and presidency.
Nothing will change if the sane people dont hold on to their principles though. If you're only voting democrat cause of the big D then you're also just like the crazed maga people. Politicians should learn what their base cares about and do something, but they probably wont. That doesnt mean we should lower our standards solely because biden isnt trump. The country isnt going to self implode if he does win again, or maybe it will. That might not be such a bad thing.
I wasn't advocating for voting democrat solely because of Trump. I was advocating for carefully weighing the consequences of ones decision in elections.
Politicians should learn what their base cares about and do something
I'm sorry but to me this is just borderline naive and it completely ignores all societal and political realities. The US has a 2 party system. It's shitty but right now that's exactly what it is.
That means: All the things that some voter wants can only be represented by either one, or the other election platform or ideology. But even if you had a system that allowed for 5 or 6 parties to coexist in parliament... What do you think: How many compromises would you have to make to allow yourself to vote for one of them? I'll guarantee you that you will always have to accept a lot of discrepancies between your ideals and the ideas a party wants to realize. Because that party must appeal to many voters if it wants to have a perspective to govern, i.e. implementing their ideas.
And that is why there is no such thing as "what their base wants". The base of any political party will be diverse in their interests. To claim that the democratic base has ending the genocide in Gaza as their top priority is just wrong. It might be a sizable chunk of young voters but of course they can tip the scales in a close race.
But there's another thing that I find naive here. And I see it in so many comments of the loud "anti genocide joe" faction: And that is the part "and do something" in your quote above. Why do some people think that the president of the US is so almighty that he could just snap his fingers and boom, the genocide is gone. He can't make these decisions alone. He's part of a system of checks and balances for very good reasons. And the political reality is that there exist many, many competing interests in politics, there are binding contracts, there are diplomatic ties, etc. etc. To conclude: It's practically impossible for Biden to stop the genocide right now. So if anyone insists that one should not vote for him because he hasn't used his divine powers for ending the genocide yet.... For me it's just dumb. It makes no fucking sense at all.
Not just a second Trump term, but a second Trump term and continuation/acceleration of the genocide in Gaza. Not voting and letting Trump win with a razor thin margin in a swing state will not fix the problem. Between the two realistic choices, Biden is infinitely more likely to push Israel for a ceasefire, which is the best chance anybody has to get the situation under control.
It doesn't look like Gaza will survive til election day, so none of this can be put on Trump.
You can't blame Trump for the Gaza Genocide but you cannot claim that Trump will make any positive difference there vs Biden. And Trump WILL make destructive changes to the environment, women's rights, minority rights, trans rights, global warming, existence of democracy and establish a more fascist state. So yeah, I guess one outcome is indistinguishable from the other
We've also seen what Biden will do for the environment, women's rights, minority rights, and trans rights. Nothing. This is pathetic.
Nothing
Source please.
I’m sure it’s not at the level that you and I wish for, and your grievances are valid…
But calling it “nothing” and then insinuating a Trump presidency will be equally bad as another Biden term?
Come on, friend. Let’s be more rigorous than that.
Don't ask for evidence that something doesn't exist. Show it does exist, instead. What are Biden's wins on those issues? Every one of those things are worse today than in 2020.
regardless, Biden is obviously pro-genocide. He called himself a zionist. I'm not voting for him.
No, it doesn’t work like that. You are claiming nothing has been done on any of those issues. It's prima facie a bold and likely specious claim.
Speak honestly: have you looked for any counterexample?
Or are you content to make extreme claims, hook people in with emotion, and throw the effort onto others to check your work?
Come on.
Amazing how you have the patience to address frustrated people like that. I guess this surely is the way but encountering these baseless yet absolute accusations just makes me angry haha.
Trying to get a progressive agenda by only thinking about the Presidency is like trying to win a game with only hail Marys. We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there. It would be a stronger and longer lasting change. Even if you're in an area that doesn't have any competitive progressives running in the primary, you are allowed to volunteer to help progressive candidates in areas that do.
We need to focus on smaller races in house and build up from there.
I heard this back in 2008. But the next eight years was nothing but losses, in large part because the national party kept kneecapping grass roots organizations.
From ACORN to Code Pink, left activists were targeted and dismantled from within the liberal party.
By the time Trump won in 2016, Dems had castrated themselves across the entire Midwest and were losing in record numbers.
How do you organize under that kind of leadership?
Florida just recently had a governor race where there was a great new candidate but then the DNC refused to back her and chose a former Republican instead to back... And which point why would anyone pick the former Republican governor when you can just have the current Republican governor and the Democrats lost by a landslide again.
They don't want to win they just want to give rich donors a job or a yes man.
And which point why would anyone pick the former Republican governor when you can just have the current Republican governor
I mean, gun to my head, if my choices are DeSantis or Crist... But that's not great for enthusiasm.
They don’t want to win they just want to give rich donors a job or a yes man.
The dirty truth about the modern Democratic Party.
How is Tlaib going to explain to her constituents that supporting Trump - who pushed the Muslim ban and called them shithole countries - by proxy will help them?
Biden may not have the best foreign policy but it really is a fascist wannabe dictator who will absolutely support Bibi regardless or we can choose Biden who isn't a fascist who at least has shown some pushback.
How is voting and organizing against genocide support for Trump?
What should her constituents do to oppose a man who is arming the folks massacring their families?
Maybe vote uncommitted in primary for pressure since that has literally no effect on the main election?
I was told that if I didn't support Biden sending tanks into Gaza, that I was a tankie.
When every side supports Israel, isn't it basically a non issue? I know you guys love to police the world, but maybe choose your politicians based on national, not global affairs
"that's right little Timmy, back in my day we voted for genocide and when we didn't we were told it was the only ethical choice, because everyone was doing it."
As relevant here as it was there
No one's fucking voting for genocide; not even Biden (whose actions on Gaza are not acceptable) is voting for genocide; say what you want, but he's not telling them to go into Gaza. And the 2024 election is about whether you want America to still be a democracy. A fascist USA helps no one.
No one’s fucking voting for genocide
Oh good. I was worried our political leadership was killing people.
And the 2024 election is about whether you want America to still be a democracy.
What kind of democracy only gives you one option on the ballot?
Fuck genocide Joe, I hope he burns in hell the senile old bastard