this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2024

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Valve unintentionally set the stage for today's digital economic hellscape, according to its former economist in residence (www.pcgamer.com)

submitted 2 months ago by nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works to c/games@sh.itjust.works

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 94 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

I definitely agree that Valve is responsible for the MTX hellscape in gaming because of TF2's hats. People thought Oblivion's Horse Armor for $5 was insane; but I would be shouted down bringing up the $25 for a single video game hat when TF2 started adding that shit. It was so much worse and that system was the one adopted by everyone and what evolved into the current "live service" systems damn near every new AAA game has now.

Unintentionally though? They were one of the loudest proponents of "games as a service" back in the day.

[–] Famko@lemmy.world 52 points 2 months ago (2 children)

More problematically, TF2 popularized loot boxes in the form of Mann Co. supply crates, starting the trend of adding essentially gambling to online multiplayer games.

[–] warm@kbin.earth 40 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Actually EA popularised that with FIFA Ultimate Team and pack opening. TF2 is very very small in comparison. After FUTs success, the loot box trend really set off.

[–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

TF2 proved it was a viable model

[–] Trollception@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago

No, that's steam, we don't speak bad about steam here.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 24 points 2 months ago

They were one of the loudest proponents of "games as a service" back in the day.

Among the old PS3 conferences there’s this one where Portal 2 is announced for PS3. While everybody else tried to make 3D TV gaming and motion controls the next big thing, Gabe just enters the stage and describes how they believe games as a service is the future.

They were so far ahead. Everybody struggled to figure out what the next big thing is going to be. Valve had already figured it out.

[–] warm@kbin.earth 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

At least I can sell my TF2 hats.

But the fact people spend $60 on a skin in a game, for just one character or weapon, is absolutely fucking insane. Not that I agree with any paid game selling cosmetics for any price.

[–] MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

But the fact people spend $60 on a skin in a game, for just one character or weapon, is absolutely fucking insane.

My nephew got very excited about the Transformers skins coming to Overwatch. I let him have his hype cycle (we are both Transformers fans), then asked him how much it cost. I told him he could buy an entire game for that much. Then, on his own, he started analyzing the pricing, and how buying 3 of the 4 on their own is more than buying the whole pack. Which segued nicely into how companies use price to steer people into buying specific things.

But he was still iffy until I told him that the same money could buy 2-3 HG Gundam kits. The next day he told me that he had bought an RG kit instead. Works for me.

[–] warm@kbin.earth 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Respect to him.

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[–] Chozo@fedia.io 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's absolutely absurd what people are willing to pay for cosmetics. I'm not about to tell anybody what they should do with their own money; do whatever makes you feel happy, even if that means buying a digital hat. But I've seen some wild shit.

I used to be one of the top-rated middlemen in the TF2 trading scene, and was a SteamRep admin for several years. This was back before Steam Marketplace existed and before there were reliable, bot-managed escrow services for these grey market sales. I oversaw some pretty big trades in that time. I remember one of the larger ones I oversaw was for a BFTC, and I think the buyer spent over $1000 on it.

And you can bet your ass I played a few games with it on while I waited for them to finalize the payment; I'm no better than a valet taking your car for a joyride while you eat dinner. :)

[–] warm@kbin.earth 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah, it's your money, spend it how you want (but please stop buying skins). It's a tough one, I guess we are stuck with it though unless a major attitude shift happens suddenly. I think a lot of people forgot or never experienced games before MTX were rampant, so they literally don't know any better.

That's crazy yeah, there's CS skins these days going for tens of thousands. I heard there was an AK sold for over a million, whether or not that was true I don't know, but the fact I think it could be really says a lot about the current state of video games.

[–] PlzGivHugs@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It is worth noting that unlike something like a League or Overwatch skin, and even a lot of early TF2 trading, modern CS and Dota skins have more emphasis put on their marketability and speculative value. For example, I've bought a few CS skins that I don't use, purely because I expect their value to increase over the next couple years. Of course, thats not all of the buyers, but that influences the purchase, and allows for those valuations unlike a Fortnite skin with a fixed price tag set by Epic with zero recoupable value.

[–] warm@kbin.earth 2 points 2 months ago

Yes, but the market is still designed to make Valve money and they are using that as a marketing tool to entice you in. The more desirable skins are a lot more expensive than they would be in Fortnite or whatever. The upside is that you can sell and trade them, so you can actually recoup at least 85% of the value (or more), the downside being that the money stays in Valve's ecosystem. Ignoring 3rd-party markets here, where you can risk selling for real money.

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[–] Sylvartas@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

TF2's hats were just the beginning. The shit they've pulled with my beloved dota 2 over the years ended up disgusting me away from the game altogether

[–] jacecomix@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago

Dota Plus killed it for me. I used to buy every TI Battle Pass + Extra Levels but the paywalling the QOL and Analytics was disgusting.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 months ago

It's 100% intentional

[–] stardust@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I think mobile monetization is what most people experienced first. Was the first ad driven games and mtx was something pretty much anyone that had a phone encountered with it not being platform specific. So I feel like mobile was the main driving force with the initial low cost and free apps and need to monetize then turning out to be an absolute hit.

I never experienced TF2 since I wasn't PC gaming back then. But the mainstream success of mobile and the low/free app costs made what would happen to "traditional " gaming inevitable.

[–] BigTrout75@lemmy.world 70 points 2 months ago (21 children)

Valve is the only good thing in the hellscape. Linux support, cheap games and free multiplayer.

Who else provides this?

[–] ruse8145@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Gog

[–] archchan@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Linux support

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 months ago

To be fair, they do a decent job providing Linux compat for games they support. They just don't do anything on the launcher side.

[–] cordlesslamp@lemmy.today 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

GOG doesn't have regional pricing.

[–] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm unclear as to whether you're saying this is a positive or negative.

I see it as a positive - it means they have a price and that price is the same for everyone without favoritism.

[–] cordlesslamp@lemmy.today 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Negative. As someone who lives in a 3rd-world country where minimum wage is $0.75/hr, even a senior accountant position would be lucky to earn $750/mo working 10-12hours a day. So pardon me for not favoring the idea of "equals price for everyone".

For us down here, it's either Steam Regional Pricing or the high sea.

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[–] CookieOfFortune@lemmy.world 42 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Is it a hellscape?

The last two GOTYs have no micro transactions. The new Elden Ring DLC is more of a traditional expansion

Indie gaming is alive and well and it’s easier than ever to develop and publish.

[–] YeetPics@mander.xyz 6 points 2 months ago

Not to mention the infinite supply of awesome indie games I have access to at the click of my mouse..

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[–] CitizenKong@lemmy.world 32 points 2 months ago

I think it's a little odd the article omits the fact that Yanis Varoufakis was also the Greek minister of finance for quite a while.

[–] Cyberflunk@lemmy.world 30 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Hellscape? I guess my reality didnt get that memo.

Unless this is just about TF2. I don't know shit about tf.

[–] jqubed@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago (1 children)

More broadly about companies not producing things but extracting “rent” from others by controlling a marketplace all others have to go through. The former economist in residence is promoting a new book he wrote, which I suppose I would have to read to fully understand his argument. The little bit I read in the article has not exactly convinced me, but more from the part that other companies he mentions like Apple and Amazon also produce products.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 months ago

I've read the book and I found it okay, but I read it not long after Shoshana Zuboff's Surveillance Capitalism, which I think tried to explain many of the same things that Technofeudalism does, but I feel Zuboff's take feels more fitting (though the two models aren't necessarily mutually exclusive)

[–] Eggyhead@kbin.run 26 points 2 months ago

I’m more inclined to blame Microsoft for innovating subscriptions for online multiplayer & MTXs on consoles. As well as advertising on dashboards and everywhere else.

[–] DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Capitalism is what is going to kill Capitalism.

[–] reksas@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 months ago

No, all of us are. Capitalism is just the motive.

[–] fulg@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Amazon is a prime example

I see what you did there…

[–] slaacaa@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Dark Gaben

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