how is a protest march in a city, on an island, in a different continent going to do anything in Gaza?
this post was submitted on 28 Oct 2023
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Because Hamas tactics include an information war to win sympathies.
Israel is deliberately mass.murdering civilians and flattening cities. They did the same thing during their war in Lebanon in 2006 - levelling urban areas like Dahiyeh to cause disproportionate damage as a deterrent. I've read that they've dropped the equivalents of 33 tons of explosives for every square kilometre of Gaza. To inflict this on one of the densest urban areas on earth on a civilian population is pure evil.
Was it evil also to bomb and flatten Berlin and the rest of Germany at the end of WW2?
If you are British or American, how do you feel about that?
Back then it wasn't known that it's not an effective strategy, Germany's reaction to those bombings pretty much set the precedent for it becoming a war crime.
And from a German perspective: We started it. And did way worse, e.g. bombing Polish cities with the explicit goal to cause maximal casualties in predominantly Jewish quarters. The allies, meanwhile, did not try to maximise casualties or anything like that but tried to make as many people as possible homeless, in an attempt to lower economic output, gum up the system, etc. Generally speaking, it didn't work. Have a Kraut video for a lot more context.
And no such thing could possibly be the goal in Gaza as Gaza already doesn't have an economy. Other possible justifications, such as "have lower overall casualties" (see e.g. bombing Dresden vs. slogging through it like slogging through Budapest) don't apply because Hamas is not going to surrender and are way more erm entunnelled. To get them out of there you have to get in there. Or maybe pour concrete in all exits you can find? That'd have my blessings.
Furthermore: As a German Zionist I'd rather Israel didn't slide into complete inhumanity, and further into fascism, thank you. (Ben-Gvir is minister so they're already half-way there, also, there doesn't seem to be much opposition against collective punishment). It's not exactly a thing you wish on a country: It's pretty much the worst calamity that can befall a country.
What would be your preferred and effective strategy against someone who wants you dead and comes into your home and kills your children? Expect and accept apology?
Are you saying that all the Palestinians have to die to prevent a few Palestinians from committing crimes?
If the actions of a few can condemn an entire population... which seems to be the underlying argument here, then a few Israelis can commit crimes to condemn the entire country....
This is eye for an eye leaves the world blind territory. Collective punishments simply magnify overall violence, they don't stop it.
You just described why every war is bad.
There is not a single war in the entire history of humankind were exclusively "the bad people" died.
So what you are actually saying is that specifically Israel is not allowed in partaking in war unless they somehow achieve what no one else ever achieved, which is a war without casualties.
With on top of it the added difficulty that Hamas is a terrorist group, so no "official" military targets.
Great, lets let the people who dont want to fight in this war leave.... ohh, that's right, they are all in prison and can't leave the "combat zone" which is... literally their prison.
The reason this conflict is very polarizing, is you have 1 million children/adolescents, 500k women, and 500k adult men locked in a box, no way out... They can't leave this conflict... they are trapped. If you were trapped in a room that was on fire, you would want to be let out....
In this case though, the analogy is only correct if I was also repeatedly setting my own rooms and the rooms beside me on fire. On purpose.
Civilians are innocent. Can the actions of a few condemn the whole group?
If your in a house, that is on fire, would you want to be rescued even if there was a arsonist with you?
Collective punishment is nasty unjust business. Where do you draw the line on the group your punishing? And if the innocents harmed in the collective punishment decide to collectively punish you right back... that is just fair - right?
Is a war always collective punishment in your opinion, or just in this case? How is Palestine not also committing collective punishment?
Your constant calling of what about isn't serving you well.
If Hamas was engaged in a similar long term action against a large civilian population, there would be protests against them too.
For the last 21 days the majority of civilians suffering are in Gaza, so Gaza gets the protestors today.
Squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Saying the people of Gaza need to die to satisfy your thirst for revenge just means the cycle of killing wont end with you
Don't put words in my mouth, please. I don't have a "thirst for revenge" or am saying people in Gaza "need to die"!
It's you who wants Jewish civilians to just be murdered and kidnapped and Hamas get applauded for it. (Feels bad, right?)
In their enthusiastic zeal to defend Palestine people are incredibly apologetic towards Hamas and similar groups. And seem all to happy to forget the kind of politics Palestine puts on display. And that for several decades now.
I wish people would think more long-term and realistic instead of screaming at each other who is the bigger protector of the oppressed. It seems shallow to be honest, and not really in favour of a better situation.
Why is it so hard to agree that killing civilizations is bad and nobody should do it. Why does pointing out the Gazan civilians are dying have to be conditioned on anything else?
Point me to where I wrote civilizations should be killed.
You never say the words explicitly...
You simply say 'what else should Israel do'.
Your posting history never is about saving civilians.
Notice how you didn't agree with my last post that 'killing civilians is bad and no one should do it'. Do you agree with that?
Of course I do. When you are digging through my post history you should have seen that I said that multiple times already.
When I look through your post history, though, I don't see a shred of sympathy for Israelis. Just apologies for the atrocities Palestine is committing. Are these people not responsible for their own doing?
Your conflating the people of Palestine and Hamas. That's like balming Jews globally for the actions of the IDF.
Palestine is not committing atrocities, Hamas is. Most Palestinians don't live in Gaza, so the majority of Palestinians don't support Hamas.
Even in your last comment your assigning collective responsibility for individual actions. That's an implicit endorsement of collective punishment.
We're all humans, should we be killing random humans for the actions of Hamas?
For what it's worth, I'm very sympathetic to the Israeli civilians who've been killed. It's a terrible experience they went through. I don't wish that on anybody.
I did not however, have solidarity with the Israeli government policies, which created a situation where violence is inevitable
You still didn't answer the question and avoiding it. Seems almost like you don't condemn the violence and attacks towards Israel and Israelis and think they deserve it.
The majority of Palestinians in Palestine and other countries celebrate the attacks Hamas commits. I've seen it here on the streets in my neighborhood how they were giving out candy and laughing when Hamas murdered and kidnapped Israelis on the music festival and in the villages.
Oh well your question was " are these people not responsible for their own actions? " In my response was clearly, you're conflating the Palestinian civilians, and the actions of Hamas. And then I gave you counterexamples.
If you wanted to ask me do I feel terrible for the Israeli civilians that have been killed? Yes I feel terrible, nobody should suffer like that. Nobody should be in the path of violence.
When Palestinians weren't with Hamas they wouldn't celebrate their violence.
Without them changing as well, there will be no end to the violence.
There you go again. Blaming the civilians for what's happening to them. You can speak for an entire population? All Palestinian support Hamas? And if they don't support Hamas they celebrate hamas's actions? That's a big assumption, and a catch 22.
Clearly not all Jewish people support the bad things happening Gaza, I know this, because they're a diverse population with different moral composes, and some of them have even gone on record saying hey this is a terrible situation it shouldn't be happening.
Quite honestly, I think your internal biases, inform your reactions. And you don't examine your own biases. You think I'm pro Hamas, I'm not. You said you looked at my posting history, I'm pretty sure you didn't, cuz it's quite extensive, and you would have seen me arguing with pro Hamas people.
Quite frankly, I don't care about the situation, these people have been killing each other since before I was born, and they will continue to kill each other long after I am dead. What I do care about is people making incorrect arguments online, without thinking about their biases, without thinking about the effect their advocating for. Which is why we had that whole argument about asymmetric power imbalances in the other thread.
So you believe it's an incorrect statement that for peace Palestine has to change as well?
comes into your home and kills your children
Are you talking about the Deir Yassin massacre?
Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, at some point people have to make up and let the past be the past. Currently Israel is going way beyond eye for an eye.
As to the current situation: How about at least having the fucking decency to build a couple of tent cities outside Gaza and let children, the elderly, and vetted people out of that killbox. If that's too much, how about not bombing areas you previously told people to flee to. This is like the bare minimum to be able to claim you care a fucking iota about humanity.
People gobble up Hamas propaganda and repeat it. On social media a lot of things have become facts that aren't proven or were shown to be false. For example the alleged bombing of the hospital or the alleged bombing of the escape route.
On the other hand, most people don't even know that Israel is constantly bombarded from different sides and that there are ongoing attacks on their settlements etc.
People online don't know because it is an ongoing info war which is very unequal. Hamas and other extremist islamic groups win by numbers alone because the majority of Muslims unquestioning stand behind Palestine.
About 79 % of Israelis are Jewish, there are 16 million Jews world wide.
99 % of people in Gaza and 85 % of people in West Bank are Muslim. 1.8 billion people are Muslim world wide!
Palestine, Hamas and activists invest into social media and propaganda a lot because that's the war they will almost certainly win. And it comes with huge benefits people seldom acknowledge.
Just think about it: Hamas was able to conduct a mass killing and abduction of civilians and continues to do so and people are justifying it left and right. You don't see the faces of Israeli victims or photos of the destroyed buildings on Israel's side online.
You should definitely look up some less biased sources.