Goth Industrial Music

Ngl, he is a douchebag.

But so was Jim Morrison, and John Lennon and Elvis and pretty much every damn musician ever. Finding musicians, especially in rock and its offspring genres, that aren't shady is harder than it should be in an ideal world. Even John Denver and Pat Boone had their moments of dickishness. And you don't even want to know what contemporary christian musicians do when they're out of the public eye, so even people that claim, in their music to be all about being decent and loving (their) god can't be assumed to be worth a damn.

For me, with any genre, the question isn't about the musician, it's about the music. Manson, while he covered some dark topics, didn't write songs encouraging raping people. Not that such a song wouldn't have been able to be a good song, but I wouldn't have listened to it. John Lennon didn't write songs encouraging people to be abusive to their spouse or abandon their kids.

Hell, even Phil Anselmo hasn't put out songs espousing his batshit version of white supremacy, and he's the kind of guy you'd expect to do that.

That's the line for me. IDGAF about the artist, so long as the music isn't centered around their douchebaggery. I might never buy an artist's music because they're a douche (Manson included), but I might pirate it.

I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach to dealing with problematic artists, and I feel it's up to individuals to decide where their threshold is.

I'm also wary of the whole "separate the art from the artist" approach: I think that should be a conversation rather than a rule. Art isn't created in a void and it's important to consider the artist's intent when evaluating their work: for example I will never consider that White Power music (urgh) has artistic value outside its racist environment.

Some industrial artists really toe that line for me and while I recognise they have a place in the history of the genre, I will have nothing to do with them.

Coming back to Manson: I don't have an issue with his music being posted here. However I think it's important to listen to people if they have a different view, and as moderators I believe we should prioritise building a community that makes people feel welcome and safe over a being a completionist source of art and music.

If we see any posts that trigger bad faith arguments, brigading or espousing attitudes we have decided we will not tolerate in this community then that's the point I will step in and moderate.

Well if we only allowed art from good safe wholesome people there wouldn't be a lot of stuff allowed. I love Daniel Graves and aesthetic perfection. But him touring with someone like Joe Letz really made a lot of us lose respect for him, Rammstein as well. The sexual assaults and roofie accusations when Letz was with them playing in Germany we're serious. The fact that chibi and the rest of the Birthday Massacre called out Andy of combichrist threatening to kick them off the tour if they didn't ditch Joe only made me respect them so much more. Because in case it's not clear Joe Letz has a history of being a pretty shitty person.

Similarly the main guy behind 3teeth which I really like. Has some extremely shit takes on Mental Health and depression. Then there is also Brian Graupner and his seeming embrace of fascism. I unironically enjoyed his extremely nerdy music. But he has severely disappointed his fellow artists that collaborate with him and a lot of his fans, and I could go on. Thomas Rainier of Nachtmar can be prickly to talk about as well etc etc etc.

Honestly I think the best way to handle it is to do similarly to the way when anyone talks about anything Graham Lineham is involved in. Shame about Graham being a snowflake cunt of a terf bastard. Separate the art from the artist where possible. But do not promote the artist themselves going forward. At least that's my two cents on it.