I used to kid about "You know, it's only a matter if time before someone starts talking about a 'final solution to 'the Palestinian problem'." And yet, here we are...
this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2024
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wait, he ACTUALLY SAID HE'S QUOTING HITLER???
when i read the title i thought he said something identical or very similar to something Hitler said maybe without knowing... all fascism leads to the same destination after all, you don't need to be deliberate about it. (remember how people said TFG was quoting hitler and he said, and i paraphrase, "i didn't know he said it i just came up with the same conclusion on my own" as if that doesn't make it worse... kinda like that)
but NO! he literally quotes Hitler by attributing the quote to Hitler without a modicum of irony. dude the israeli government has gone do far deep into fascism that they can't even use the thinnest veils as cover.
He has never been part of Israel's government.
Like I wrote in another comment, he was 36th on the Likud's list 10 years ago, and later founded a party that didn't even get 1 mandate.
Whats with all these Judea-Nazis in Israel?
Here's a reminder that the right wing Zionist used to work with the Nazis, some of them even after the war starts.
Source?
The Story Of Lehi, The Jewish Terrorist Organization That Tried To Form An Alliance With The Nazis
He took Jabotinsky’s idea of a mass exodus of European Jews to Palestine and crafted an outlandish proposal: in return for Lehi swearing their allegiance to the Axis Powers, Stern wanted all Jews under the Nazi administration to be transferred to Palestine, 40,000 of whom would be immediately armed and trained to rebel against the British authorities.
Lehi's members obtained key roles in israeli politics later on, such as one of their leaders Yitzhak Shamir which became prime minister of israel.
The claim was "the right wing Zionist used to work with the Nazis". The "source" is describing
- a splinter group (that was opposed by other Zionists)
- trying to get an agreement with the Nazis
- that would allow all Jews to leave the Nazi territories
Of course the right wing was opposed by other Zionists. They were radical fascists. That's why I said right wing (the minority) and not all of them. The problem is the right wing is now the majority. Revisionist Zionists control Israel today. They did far more than try to get agreements and it was for way more than for Jews to leave Nazi territory. Stern was hoping to get Nazi backing to attack the British in Palestine and to help prop up the fascist ethno-state that would be established.
I'm not familiar with the factions in Zionism, but according to Wikipedia they were opposed by other revisionist Zionists, e.g. Ze'ev Jabotinsky. Also: still no sources
I did give you a source, you just didn't respond to that comment for some reason.
Also I'm not sure why you think what you're saying is inconsistent with what I said. The revisionist zionists worked with the Nazis and fascists in Italy. Then after the war started a splinter group continued to work with a Nazis, although there is evidence to say that the other group was also still working with the Nazis. Since you already read Wikipedia you must have seen that part.
Since you were unfamiliar with the factions of Zionism I suggest you learn about them and that would make you better able to have these discussions. Though keep in mind they're all friendly with fascists left and right. Because Zionism is inherently a fascist principle.
Opposed? Lehi's members became big politicians in what would later become israel.
I have slightly edited my previous comment to include a bit more detail but here's israeli Prime minister and leader of what used to be Lehi Yitzhak Shamir
There's much more. What's important to know is that Lehi while not the biggest organisation they were extremely violent. At the time they had massive impact on the direction of israel. Their radical Zionism played a big part in shaping israel and their "the end justifies the means" approach can clearly be observed to this day.
Bonus meme: Lehi also ran the newspaper Hamaas
Opposed?
Yes, opposed: "These appeals to Germany were in direct opposition to the views of other Zionists, such as Ze'ev Jabotinsky, who wanted Britain to defeat the Nazis even as they wanted to expel the British from Palestine." Source
What's important to know is that Lehi while not the biggest organisation they were extremely violent.
No, for the question of "the right wing Zionists working with the Nazis" it is not important. You can be extremely violent without working with Nazis..
Their radical Zionism played a big part in shaping israel and their "the end justifies the means" approach can clearly be observed to this day.
This may well be, but is also not the same as working with Nazis.
Bonus meme: Lehi also ran the newspaper Hamaas
Also no relevance for the question of working with Nazis.
I like the part where you fully ignored a Lehi leader becoming the Prime Minister of israel
You might try reading a bit about the Revisionist Zionist movment. Particularly the IZL (Irgun) and the Lehi (Stern Group). There are tons of great books on this. I'd recommend The Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir by Lenni Brenner
Mentioned on page 94 (Chapter 4) of 10 Myths About Israel by Ilan Pappé. To be straight forward with you I couldn’t find the primary source of this statement in there but I think it’s in one of his previous books which are all referenced as sources for this chapter. In general, Pappé is considered credible by the academic community except by Zionists of course, though their opinion on this topic doesn’t count for much imo.
Internet archive is apparently somewhat of with the pages, page 94 seems to be in a different chapter there.
Scanning chapter 4 however, the only mention of collaboration with the Nazis is "[Hajj Amin al-Husayni]'s willingness to serve as a radio commentator for the Nazis and to help recruit Muslims in the Balkans to the German war effort no doubt stains his career. But he did not act any differently from the Zionist leaders in the 1930s, who themselves sought an alliance with the Nazis against the British Empire, or from all the other anticolonialist movements who wanted rid of the Empire by way of alliances with its principal enemies." (page 65 on the archive)
This seems like a rather unspecific source for "right wing Zionist used to work with the Nazis, some of them even after the war starts." (not to mention that njm1314 somehow forgot to mention that at least Palestinian leader also wanted an alliance with the Nazis and actually worked for/with them).
I'm starting to think that njm1314 is not as well known fact as they make it out to be...
They have become the thing they hate.
I mean, Likud is the successor organization to the original Zionists, so they've always been genocidal ethno-fascists. But this guy decided to form his own party because Likud apparently wasn't ethno-fascist enough for him.
The "original zionists" were socialist and communists who tried to do things in the way of cooperation and peace, and were a defensive group.
The offensive groups splintered off the original one after Arab riots and massacres of Jews.
Seems like a nut.
Also he's not in office. It's kinda like getting upset if George Santos said something insane.
I get that people are working hard to find evidence for the "Israel = Nazis" narrative that's currently trending, but kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel aren't we?
Or, here's another way of looking at it.
Man who voluntarily left the ruling party of Israel and remains a part of Israel's political class quotes Hitler. Not in the way we all quote Hitler to show that a point of view is wrong because Hitler held it, but rather in the way we quote someone like Nelson Mandela or Albert Einstein; to support an argument because we respect the source.
Meaning, Israeli politician respects Hitler.
Israel=Nazis is trending because the Israeli regime is genocidal, just like the Nazi regime that necessitated the creation of Israel, which is tragically ironic. This news piece is just garnish.
I see people constantly invoking the Nazis to make excuses for the actions of Hamas. The logic is "Israel is like Nazis therefore everything Hamas does it permissible." It's idiotic reasoning but it's commonplace here.
This guy is similarly idiotic. If you're outraged by what this guy is saying, look at the rationalizations people on here do everyday in support of Hamas. It's the same eye for an eye kind of thinking. "Other side is Nazis, therefore we should do horrible things!"
It's not supporting Hamas to point out that Israel is doing horrible things.
I guess you just pretend not to see comments all over Lemmy expressing support for Hamas?
I'm definitely seeing more comments in full support of Israels actions in Gaza
Doesn't mean there isn't support for Hamas abounds.
They seem like immature TikTok kids from what I can tell, but they're around.
Oh definitely. I'm just saying both sides have their indiscriminant supporters and that one side is way overrepresented in my experience
Ex Likud members which used to be part of the Knesset that are now running their own party and saying this stuff on mainstream israeli TV channels does indicate something.
Unless they arrested this guy for saying literal Nazi shit on TV of course. Surely israel would do that right.
You think people should be arrested for mentioning Nazis?
Israel is currently jailing any Arab which posts anything on social media which the state does not condone.
Arabs in Israel face reprisals over online solidarity with Gaza
The Palestinian singer Dalal Abu Amneh was arrested briefly this week when she went to a police station to file a complaint after receiving hundreds of death threats. Rather than investigating her complaint, police detained her because of a comment she posted on Facebook, said her lawyer, Abir Bakr.
“They put cuffs on her hands and feet, and subjected her to insults and humiliation. They want to frighten people and teach them a lesson through Dalal,” Bakr said. After the start of Israel’s bombardment of Gaza, Abu Amneh had posted “there is no victor but Allah” alongside a Palestinian flag on her Facebook page.
Invoking literal Hitler in a context that literally calls for literal Genocide on mainstream TV, does call into question if there are any double standards present here.
Now that antisemitism isn't a problem anymore for israel either since they're literally quoting Hitler it's getting pretty obvious that israel is just doing Nazi Germany and white power.
Here you are claiming antisemitism isn't a problem in the same sentence where you're implying all Jews are just like the worst one you can find.
As you are a known israel defender I'm not going to bother with this extremely antisemitic comment but defending Nazism is a new low for you.
I'm known? Cool!
See the difference between you and I is that I attribute the actions on October 7 to Hamas, not the Palestinian people. But you see any Israeli doing something wrong you use it to paint everyone in Israel as being that way.
You can split hairs about whether that's antisemitism, but I don't care. When you see one person of an ethnicity and/or religious group doing something wrong and then go on to say "they" do things like that, you're showing what kind of person you are.
You keep describing israelis as "Jews". A description israel itself rejects as it claims it is secular.
So somehow is both "Jewish", but also "secular", But also somehow also has Palestinians if Apartheid needs to be defended.
Because Israel is a Jewish state?
I tend to say Jew when when someone trends towards hating all Israelis, because hatred towards Israel is a common dog whistle for antisemites. After the "It's ok to criticize Israel" meme went viral, many antisemites did a find and replace on "Jew" and changed it to "Israeli". Those same antisemitic conspiracy theories most people would immediately denounced by most people before are now commonly spread simply because one word was changed. When I see those conspiracy theories espoused with one word different from the original, I bring it back to the original version. Why would I pretend that I don't know the intent for these conspiracy theories?
Sometimes it's important to take what you're saying and put the word Jew in there. If what you're saying about Israel suddenly becomes uncomfortable when "Israeli" is replaced with "Jew", then you should consider more carefully what you're saying. Someone says "wipe them off the map" they are talking about the ethnic cleansing of Jews after all. Or do you honestly believe that those that want Israel wiped off the map would displace Arab Israelis along with the Jewish Israelis? Come on...
The trick to avoid being a racist is introspection. Some consideration about whether your thinking is being guided by racism every now and then. If it's uncomfortable to hear your rhetoric being applied to Jews rather than Israelis or "Zionists", then maybe you should be checking how you're thinking about things a little more.
If me considering your rhetoric as being against Jews makes you uncomfortable, then good. Your discomfort might lead to introspection.
Wait I thought it was secular. So you are admitting israel is like ISIS?
You don't seem to understand a lot about history with regards to Jews. Someone can consider themself to be a Jew if they are in the Judaism religion, and they can consider themself a Jew If one or both of their parents are Jews. Sometimes people that don't consider themself to be a Jew can be considered a Jew by others even if just one of their Grandparents were a Jew.
All of these have been oppressed in the past. Oppression of Jews generally goes in cycles. Tolerance for a few generations, but then animosity builds up over time. Since Jews are a minority group they're an easy target, and if a minority group achieves any measure of success people become jealous and a minority group having success runs counter to white supremacist ideology. Paranoia builds up, lots of conspiracy theories around Jews being successful because they used manipulation and took things that rightfully belonged to someone else.
Then a massacre happens and most people are horrified by it. So the majority of people go back to tolerating Jews again. But after a few generations people go back to the paranoia and jealous hatred against a minority group for achieving any kind of success.
The last cycle when antisemitism reached it's maximum, there were no countries that offered sanctuary to Jews. I don't think that will be the case on this cycle because while there's few people left who personally witnessed the holocaust, most people in positions of power at least knew someone who was affected by it. But on the next cycle? What happens if the people that say October 7 was justified are the majority and are in positions of power in the west? The tankie pro-Palestinian protest kids of todady will likely be the MAGAs of tomorrow. It's easy to see the potential of repeat of every country in the world refusing to offer sanctuary to Jews that are the victims of oppression.
And that's why Israel exists. It's not a religious state. It's also not an ethno-state. It's a state that exists to provide sanctuary for victims of antisemitism. A lot of people are uncomfortable with the existence of Israel because it's a reminder of our failure to have any level of humanity towards Jews in the past.
I hope there's a day where it isn't necessary for there to be a country that has a Jewish majority to ensure there's at least one country that offers sanctuary to Jews during times of peak antisemitism. But seeing attacks on synagogues and attacks on Jewish businesses in the west, we're unfortunately not there yet.
So if I start calling myself a Jew you become antisemitic?
Critical thinking isn't exactly your strong suit, is it?
It is
.... does he not see the irony in calling the other guys nazis while directly (and knowingly) quoting Hitler?
You want the truth or you want to keep what's left of your faith in humanity?
A politician who got the 36th position in the Likud list 10 years ago.
The party he founded after that didn't get even 1 mandate.