this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2024
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Unless that doctor is performing emergency surgery there really is no reason they need to keep people waiting that long. it's so disrespectful, doesn't matter they are a doctor.
It’s awesome being a doctor because you get to try your best to help people all day, get held up by patients talking about 6 different issues they didn’t even book their appointment for, held up by admin demanding you finish your notes between patients, held up by arguing on the phone with insurance that won’t authorize clearly necessary treatments, held up by nursing staff (understandably) needing your input on things between patients, and then read people bitching online like you were just spending that time drinking coffee and flirting with the nurses when you have a caffeineh eadache because you haven’t even had enough time to stop and drink coffee at all AND admin is bitching at you because you aren’t seeing enough patients every day.
I don’t think people mean it’s the doctors fault or that they’re sitting around doing Jack. The frustration is that doctors time is so packed full that they don’t have time for all those things, which is an administration problem.
Clinic/hospital admins want to pack the doctors schedule full of 15min increment appointments, where they’re expected to see the patient, diagnose/treat, and complete notes/charts within an incredibly short amount of time.
Worst part is that most of the time this is not done because the clinic is having trouble making money, but because they want MORE profit from every person walking into their doors.
It's the culmination of decades of cost cutting measures in the medical field as small practices get eaten up by large companies.
I used to get mad at the doctors who worked for those big companies, now you are lucky if you can avoid them.
A doctor tha expects those things to happen should schedule based on that knowledge.
If the admin has unrealistic expectations, then those expectations need to be addressed.
Unfortunately the doctors usually aren't the ones managing the schedule. The admin / secretaries are.
And good ones, that understand that a new patient with no file, that doesn't speak the language, that has a history of complications with her previous pregnancies, etc is not gonna be a normal half hour consultation are extremely rare.
Even kind ones that see that you are swamped day in day out just seem to assume that these are teething difficulties, adapting to the position, etc (even after almost two years).
And so that's how my wife ends up doing a ten hour workday. Nonstop. With no break for lunch because hey, too bad, she finished the morning shift two hours late and now her first afternoon appointment has been waiting for half an hour...
But of course if you tell patients there is no time for them because the few doctors that are here are already overworked...
(to be clear, I've been saying the same thing as you to my wife for two years now. But apparently the message is not getting across)
And you haven't even gotten to the medical billing phase that's been strangling American healthcare systems for decades!
Thankfully we are in France and everybody is fighting tooth and nails to not become that. So far so good.
everybody!?
what an overstatement!
I want to believe that the vast majority of people in the medical profession are indeed fighting to keep capitalism away from the system. And so far that's been my experience. But you're right, of course. That's an optimistic take.
now that nfp may have a say in government, things may hopefully get better for you?
Idk if my boss gives me a schedule with unreasonable timelines and deliverables, I tell him, and we talk about it, and we get it fixed. If it keeps happening, I've found new work.
Maybe the medical industry has systematic issues that can't be resolved, but everyone should have some autonomy
The problem is that doctors and more broadly care workers have a hard time walking away from their job because, you know, they care for people that they would leave in a worse situation if they left.
It's not an industry, it's a public service (I'm in France). Also they're saving lives.
If she walks away, that's one fewer ob/gyn in a region where they have almost none left in the private sector (the last one in town retired this year). Women and children will quite literally die and she knows it.
On the other hand that means she's more valuable and surely she should negotiate her salary from a position of strength, right?
But the set of people who become doctors and who negotiate with "would be too bad if something happened to women and children" is, as far as I know, empty.
If any exist, I don't think they'd last the twenty odd years of studying and training before they start making bank. Much simpler and faster to become a gangster.
A doctor can address the scheduling issue with whoever does the scheduling. Addressing does not mean the doctor gets their way, but that they discussed it and attempted change.
If they can't have that discussion, why are they atill working there and what is their plan when changes are made that make scheduling even worse?
Why can't your wife adjust her schedule? She's the one with the medical degree. She can ask for anything she wants, within reason.
Tell her to say that she needs more time between patients to avoid a lawsuit. She doesn't want to miss anything. They'll listen to that.
Yeeep. We are on the same wavelength. I literally opened my argument with the same idea, last time we had the convo : she's the one with the doctorates, plural. She should be the one telling them what she can and can't handle. Feck, her head doctor is on the same page too. Unfortunately that sort of power seems to come with age and even at 40 she still doesn't have that kind of attitude. One could attribute this to her gender, I suppose, but having seen my dad do exactly the same thing throughout his career until he reached near retirement age, and having seen all my dad's colleagues do the same thing, hopefully you get the idea.
There just isn't enough time and too many patients for not enough doctors. Always. And most doctors want to help their patients, so they just don't count the hours, until the work is done.
Doctors don’t do the scheduling. The idea of telling admin to change their expectations is laughable.
What a defeatist attitude.
The doctor is a professional and can address things, no matter who does the actual work. If they can't even address issues with an admin on acheduling, what are they going to do when the admin stops ensuring they have all the supplies they need?
Ok but like, there was a little sip and flirt on the way wasn't there? ;)
I kid. Keep on keeping on.
I don’t think anyone actually took that route (none of the comments I read).
I honesty kind of blame the patient for talking about 6 different issues while here I am trying to go by the rules and only use 5 mins of my doctor’s time.
I have never unappreciated doctors, but that doesn’t mean things can’t improve.
Doctors don’t do the scheduling. I also explicitly mention the part about admin bitching about not seeing enough patients. I don’t give a fuck about money, I make enough. I would love to only see 3 patients a day and give them all the attention they need. But I would be out of a job, and then I’m helping no one. I highly suggest that you don’t comment on subjects you are completely uninformed about.
Doctors don’t hire fucking anyone unless they are in private practice. If it IS private practice you have to keep your business afloat for yourself and employees. Holy shit, just stop fucking talking. The enemy here is not doctors, it’s the hospital and insurance system.
All of that for 6€/h after taxes!
You sound so disrespectful...
Then book fewer patients per day (assuming it's your own practice). It's one thing to have a bad day where you fall behind. It's another thing when you fall an hour behind every day.
So what happens if a patient lies about their concern and a 15 minute checkup is all of a sudden a 45 minute spiel. You can’t just leave a patient you’re treating, they try to allow for some leeway, but they’re a business too after all, can’t be sitting around either.
Without meaning to go completely off the rails, maybe this is part of the problem? I mean we can't sink our entire GDP into toenail fungus, but there ought to be some middle ground somewhere.
I don't think "they're a business" properly captures the concern. It's probably more accurate to say that they have a desire to operate efficiently and not waste resources, but it has to be balanced against the need to treat patients effectively and fairly.
So long as demand exceeds capacity, we will wait.
Even in public health care, family doctors who don’t work in government hospitals or clinics, operate their own “store front” have their own bills and employees and can only bill the government certain amounts for certain visits. So if they can’t bill the government for sitting around, it’s cash out of their pocket for their expenses.
Right and that is getting off the rails. I know providing healthcare isn't free so consuming it isn't free either. But when a public need becomes a profit-seeking venture, I start getting skeptical that this is the best way to ensure efficient use of resources.
How are they making a profit seeking business when they can only bill insurance, WCB, or the the public health care system a certain amount for each visit. There is some uninsured things, but they don’t charge unreasonable amounts, people would go elsewhere. It keeps everyone honest in that regard. And they only charge since they can’t bill anyone else and it costs them time and money.
You called it a business. Which I read as "profit-seeking endeavor". Perhaps you intended it differently.
Not for profits are also businesses… your assumptions are your bias… and ignorance.
Edit Actually, which definition are you even using here…?
No definition has “profit” in it that I can see
My intention is the definition of the word, what is YOUR intention here dude?
Have you ever... like... had a conversation before? I can't read your fucking mind. I explained my point of view and you explained yours and corrected how I'd read something different than you intended. edit: The doctors I see are all part of a larger, profit-seeking business. I have not seen these non-profit doctors outside of Doctors Without Borders and such.
What part of that means you need to be a prick about things? If you suggest medicine should be non-profit then we are in agreement and there is no need to be an asshole. That's not at all how I read your first message, so excuse the fuck out of me for trying to have a conversation on a fucking message board.
You can’t read my mind, yet you picked a definition that doesn’t exist? And tried using it as your argument? That’s not how people have conversations dude.
I’m sorry you are using your US based logic for a global conversation, not every place it out there to rip you off. I had already explained how they can only bill X amount, so how can you profit from that? Please explain YOUR perspective on this one, please.
Business is a profit seeking endeavor is a definition that doesn't exist? Fuck off... I can't take anything else you say seriously.
I provided Mariam’s definitions which didn’t include anything related to profit, why would you assume the term is “for profit”? Where have you seen that before? Not for profit business is a phrase everyone should know….
I’m sorry you got called out for assuming during a “discussion”, now if you want to prove you wanted to have a discussion instead of crying/whining/trolling, please provide where you’ve seen this and we can clear up this confusion.
Because I’ve explained my point in every comment, yet you’re still arguing this irrelevant detail.
Is this seriously what you think conversing is?
Bro did you really say “Is this seriously what you think conversing is”?
You can’t have a single conversation on here without becoming argumentative as hell, and you even usually escalate to a completely uncalled for and nonsensical degree.