So... ok, look... I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I'm just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople... ) attracted to women, who's had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.

To get to my point, from the perspective I've detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.

In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we're trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own "man" as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says "men are toxic" and that's it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they're coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.

TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.

Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I'm literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.

The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I'm referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I'm sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that "The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole," at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?

Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit's as confusing as can be to me and I'm honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I'm essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like... you get it.

[–] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 28 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

All right, let me give it a shot...

Masculinity is good

Toxic masculinity is not good.

Toxic masculinity includes things like couching nice comments in mean comments. Saying things like toughen up instead of listening to feelings and concerns. Not doing a good job with personal hygiene because it's "gay". There is probably more, but it's 7:00 a.m. and my brain is not thinking good.

Being a man means that you're a human. And like all humans you have feelings. No, you did not use your willpower and/or big brain to remove feelings from your system. No one can do that. All you've done is removed the ability for you to detect your feelings. Others can see them clearly, because you have lost the ability to identify your own feelings and are not able to tell when you are having them. Hint: A lot of times feelings will transform themselves into anger if you don't have a good understanding of what's going on inside you. Even feelings like sadness, if not understood can come out as anger.

"I don't know" is a valid response to a question.

Not everything you do has to be "rational" we are humans not computers.

Figure out, create, and enforce personal boundaries. Likewise respect the personal boundaries of others.

As a human being, you have intrinsic value. This is not tied to the work you do or the money you make. It is only tied to the fact that you exist. Because of this, you deserve to live and enjoy life implicitly.

Assuming you're straight and you want sex with women. Sex is good. Straight women love sex with men just like straight men love sex with women. There is an unfortunate history between men and women where men are the aggressors, and have caused lots of pain, suffering, and death. This does not mean you are bad. It does mean though that you need to deal with the consequences of that history. Understand that going on a first date from a woman's perspective is very scary. So don't do anything that would cause concern. Be considerate. Give the woman an out. Keep your sketchy jokes to yourself for a couple of dates.

When dating, remember and enforce your boundaries and respect their boundaries. Women, like men, are not intrinsically good at relationships.

Pro dating tip from me to you: I have found sometimes that women just want to have someone listen to the problem they're having and sympathize. They'll do this even though they already know the solution. My instinct has been to try to suggest solutions. This does not go well. Just listen to their problem, resist the urge to suggest the obvious solution, and say something like " Wow, that sounds hard!"

I understand what I'm asking is very hard to do, but remember 99.999% of my advice also applies to all humans, not just men. It's just as men, you've been kept out of the loop by culture. It's not your fault. Feelings and boundaries are hard for everyone. It's like learning how to ride a bike at 30 years old. Most everyone already knows how to do it. And now you're at the age where it's hard to learn.

Don't forget you have intrinsic value. Love yourself!

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I like this comment a lot.

Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings? Like, I understand that I'm sad or nervous about a new situation or whatever but I can't function as well when I'm sad or anxious. When it changes to anger I can still do the things I need to do. I'm probably not pleasant to be around but I'm not pleasant to be around when I'm emotional in other ways either so it kind of evens out because at least I can work. If I can take the time to just be sad I do but I prefer to be alone with it so usually it comes out when I'm driving or other situations where I know I'll have privacy. My friends would support me and I have supported them in the past but it's just something I prefer to deal with alone. The few times I've let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It's like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.

[–] deaf_fish@lemm.ee 8 points 2 months ago

Good questions!

So in an ideal world, if you have a feeling. You should be able to say something like "I am having emotions and I need some time alone to deal with it." and then leave the area to find a safe space.

Unfortunately, we are rarely living in the ideal world. The next best thing to do is to communicate that you are having feelings and might do some wacky stuff. Only do this if you feel safe to do so.

If you don't feel safe to communicate or go find a safe space, then yeah, your kinda stuck to power though it. If you find this happens often you have to weigh weather or not it is worth changing your situation. This is very hard to do and is a result of pervasive toxic masculinity and bad luck.

As for the situation with your x it could be a range of things from she was affected by toxic masculinity as well (the expectation that all men need to be emotionless) or at worst, she was using the fact that you didn't feel like you could show emotions against you. So when you showed emotions, the gig was up. Either way it sucks, I am sorry you went though that.

My personal preference is to only date people who understand that all humans have emotions. You need to make your own calls in this regard. Again, unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

Part of the challenge of moving away from toxic masculinity is we have to be firm with our boundaries. This may get expensive, so you have to weigh out how much life suck you can deal with. Its not always clear what the right answer is.

Good luck!

[–] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 2 months ago

The few times I've let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It's like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.

I'm very sorry to hear that. It may be that they did not have the emotional and social maturity to process it well. Or, maybe your expression did not come across in the way that you thought.

Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings?

This is one that I can't answer as an expert, both because I am not a mental health professional and because I struggle with my emotions a bit due to my ADHD and maladaptive coping mechanisms to deal with childhood trauma. But, therapy has helped significantly and I will always suggest it to anyone who is able to access it.

What I can offer, though, are some tools, theory, and suggestions that have been helpful for me so far:

Find a good Feelings/Emotion Wheel. So far, I like the ones patterned after the Junto Institute as it delves into the nuance of emotions that we experience.

How do you use it? Well, there are a lot of different approaches. What I find helpful is looking at it from time to time to "look at the map" and thinking about times when I have experienced intense emotions, using the Wheel to better draw out more precisely what I was feeling. This exercise generally also goes into exploring why I was feeling that way and contemplating what ways I could act in order to express the identified emotion in a manner that is both genuine and constructive (I am much more comfortable with logic than emotionality).

When it comes to interpersonal expression of one's emotions, one can try the same thing with a bit of extra roleplaying. First, I might walk through how I was feeling and how I expressed it, then pretend that I am the person who I expressed it to and try to identify how I would feel in their place and why (every other person is another human being with their own hopes, dreams, desires, and emotions).

An extremely important thing to keep in mind when working through past experiences is to be kind to your past self and past people that you interacted with. Malice is not a very common thing to encounter, so try not to assume it.

The idea, overall, is that by going through exercises like those, one builds their comfort and familiarity with their own emotions and are better able to self-regulate and express themselves in a manner that will lead to more healthy outcomes.

Going back to the first bit of yours that I quoted, if you did indeed express yourself in a healthy and appropriate fashion, splitting ways may have, in fact, been the healthiest outcome for you. Being with a partner that does not value you for who you are (our emotions are part of ourselves), is not something that is psychologically healthy or conducive to a stable relationship.

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Sincerely, thank you! This is more than I could've hoped for and, yes, it's plenty clear wherein lay the problems.

Also reassuring, because the entire list just sounds like "be human and humane," which... I mean, yeah!

[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.

this big problem here is that we need a fundamental shift in child rearing and how we raise boys. There isn't really a good example beyond that. Currently the best you can do is be a good mentor and role model for the boys and young men around you. Preferably without becoming a suspected child predator, which is the hard part.

it's looking like we're moving towards that, but we have very little direction and very little scientifically backed evidence for any of this, so we're kinda just pushing into a marshy field and trying to find a coin someone dropped somewhere at this point.

[–] latenightnoir@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's exactly why I'd add as many details as possible with posts such as this! Swing it from a "you're an asshole," to "you're an asshole because:" and I'm sure this'll resolve a lot of potential knee-jerk reactions in those who are targeted by and come into contact with said messages.

I agree that it's up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there's a lot of redefining to do in general... And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!

[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 months ago

this could help, but you could go even further. Instead of "you're being an asshole" you could say "this is an asshole thing to do, you probably shouldn't do this" or something like that which dissociates the person from it very aggressively.

I agree that it’s up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there’s a lot of redefining to do in general… And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!

yeah. It's going to be a big change socially.