Ah yes, get two nuclear powers against each other, great fucking idea.
Do people not see how insane this is?
this post was submitted on 08 Mar 2024
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If French troops were sent into Ukraine and were then hit by Russia, would that then trigger NATO agreements?
Article 6 says:
"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."
Aware this might be a situation where the spirit of the agreement ends up being more important than the legalese.
It would not. It's a defensive treaty.
Ukraine isn't a part of France or under the jurisdiction of France, so the attack wouldn't be on France's territory, and Ukraine isn't a member of NATO itself.
Idk, reading it sounds like any attack on member troops would count
No.
Did you read it? Do you care to provide any actual insight into the conversation, or are you just a troll?
Read article 6. No. It doesn’t meet the requirements.
Article 5 is null because if France sends troops, Russia has the right to self defense.
Also article 5 doesn’t mean anyone has to send troops. It means they have to do what they are willing to do.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm
I doubt the United States would enter th conflict just because France wants to get in a fight. We have other treaty obligations we have to protect.
Russia is in no position where it needs to "self defend". Its troops won't be attacked if its troops leave Ukraine. The right to self defense is what Ukraine is using right now.
French trrops would just surrender after 5 weeks, like they did last time.
Sort of a joke that they just decided to draw this gray line now, given that Russian troops have been advancing for months
I am in conflict about that move. But Macron at least tries to irritate Putin with his own definition of a „red line“, like „if you push to Odessa or Kyiv we will send troops“ maybe this is just the way of talking to Putin now, Russia always threaten Europe of nuclear strikes, their propaganda shitty tv shows is full of bombing Great Britain and sink the whole island, bombing or conquering Berlin again blah blah. They won’t because they can’t because of NATO and even without the US, Russia is not capable to conquer whole Europe, yet. So I think it is a good move in terms of threatening Putin with nato troops in Ukraine, because this is the only language he understands. On the other hand France is kinda safe when it comes to a conventional war, at least for a long time. Of course Germany is scared because it is not that far away, it is literally just Poland between Germany and russia and the German military is by far not able to fight a war against a well trained army with endless human resources.
There is one important difference when it comes to what rhetoric is suitable between France and Russia, I think. Russia has control over the narrative within it's land, about the media and limits free speech. If Russia doesn't follow up on it's threads, there are no internal consequences and externally, Russia might lose some credibility but still say an unpredictable danger. I think France has a lot more to loose when not following up on their threads / red lines. In terms of diplomacy with other countries, internally with the government appearing weak to its citizens and towards Russia too.
Finally someone with some fucking balls
You can take my place then.
Right. Macron’s not the one putting his head in front of the bullets
I see the two of you don't understand how a military works then. You don't join a military, and then bitch and complain if you are sent to fight, it's literally what you signed up for. If in this specific situation you are not French, you should also probably just keep your mouth shut
I see you don't understand that many European citizens are conscripts.
Finland, Switzerland, Austria, and Greece. These are the European countries with conscription. On paper, Norway and Sweden have conscription, but in all actuality there's basically no way you get conscripted involuntarily.
And Switzerland doesn't really count, they don't belong to the defense pacts
You don’t join a military, and then bitch and complain if you are sent to fight
Look at yourself, you are talking like an human without soul. People are not robots or machines they join the military because perhaps they believe in justice and want to defend their own people from villains. There's no justice in fighting a war for business, there's no justice in fighting wars for corrupted politicians at the expenses of innocent people.
We are all humans and everyone should be allowed and encouraged to talk not to keep his mouth shout.
because perhaps they believe in justice and want to defend their own people from villains.
So like Putin?
Politicians and rulers are bad actors and professional liars who use everything as a leverage to get more wealth and power. Stalin fought the nazi in WWII, was he a good human being? fuck no he was a dictator himself tripping on power.
Politician who these days call for freedom on one hand while supporting a genocide in the other are scum, it's not that hard to see.
Wait... are you actually trying to push Putin's "Ukrainians are Nazis" narrative?
no? read the comments more carefully, if you need take a break walk around take a nap or eat something, there's no hurry.
Politicians and rulers never do, they are playing chess with people
Someone with "balls" wouldn't be sit drinking champagne in a suit and send thousand to die out of business. Politicians like this one are actually mentally hill people with mental problems addicted to money and wealth
Politicians like Putin? You know the source of all this is Putin himself. He is certainly mentally hill [sic]
They all are, anyone who shakes hand with putin or his friends with a genuine laugh on his face is scum too.
As much as I dislike Macron, I'll just remember that he was one of the European leaders that was favoring finding a diplomatic solution the most during the earlier weeks of the war. He's probably being more opportunistic than brave, honest or committed, but at least you can't accuse him of being a bloodlusting warmonger.
He’s probably being more opportunistic than brave, honest or committed, but at least you can’t accuse him of being a bloodlusting warmonger.
He's literally waging war right now. Were have you been in the past 10 years where he has beaten and repressed a million of his own people and passed all sort of authoritarians law?
send him instead to the front
They’re okay with war because it won’t be them holding the famas, it will be me or other french people.
Fuck them.
Putin wants to take over Europe. You're okay with that?
Any corrupted politician dream is to take over other countries, western politicians wet dream is to take over russia too.
Unlike corrupted politicians i do not support putin, i don't have pictures shaking hands with him and laughing, i don't have mutual friends with him, i don't have a boat parked in the same dock next to his, i don't have business associations with him and i didn't sign weapons deals with russia a bunch of years ago like many EU countries did.
western politicians wet dream is to take over russia too.
Which ones? Please show evidence.
And you don't have to like Putin to support him. All you have to do is do what you're doing and be okay with him taking over Ukraine. To begin with.
I do not support putin, the ukrainian government or any other corrupted politician. If you do talk for yourself and not for others. I support freedom and justice, always and for everyone. You do not fight for freedom arming and empowering villains and dictatorships.
I support freedom and justice, always and for everyone.
Except in Ukraine since you aren't interested in helping them be free.
Are you aware that since 2022 any male between 18 and 60 can't leave the country and will be arrested if they try to do so? Are you aware that your own government is in business partnership with countries like china who also supply russia in the war?
First of all, you don't know what my government is because I never told you. It might be China for all you know.
Secondly, your "they are not free now due to the war, so it's okay if Putin takes over their country and they lose their freedom in perpetuity" argument is a poor one.
Secondly, your “they are not free now due to the war, so it’s okay if Putin takes over their country and they lose their freedom in perpetuity” argument is a poor one.
You seem to be confusing russia with saudi arabia or other dictatorships around the world the west is totally fine with. As far as i'm aware russian can leave their country if they want to.
Unless you live on mars or an unknown island i do not need to know where you live to tell your government is corrupted, all governments are. If you don't think so you are free to provide an example of a government that isn't ruled by corrupted politicians and that never beat its own people.
Cool. I was talking about Ukraine, where you think there is no freedom and Russia is liberating them.
No corrupted politician or government will help people free themself from other politicians, only people themself can do that
I'm pretty sure that's what Ukraine is trying to do... and they want help.
Sending weapons to the corrupted and authoritarian ukrainian government so that they can fight a proxy war against russia is not helping ukrainian people
The alternative is that Russia takes over Ukraine. Is that what you want?
You seem to be brainwashed by propaganda into believing that not sending weapons to a dictatorship means you are helping another one. Your government seem fine with russia taking over ukraine otherwise they probably would stop their partnerships with china who is providing russia weapons.