It's easy to build a cheap car when you ignore the human rights of your workers and the environmental damage of your production process.
this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
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Lol western nations dint give a fuck about that. They just externalized the environmental costs to China and other poor nations until now and then sold the end result to their customers. The only problem is that that US doesn't own the company.
OK but let's talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you'll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.
Anti worker. Riiight.
That's just you speaking the Big Three's mantra. If they'd gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn't need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70's, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it's time they did.
This isn't about technology at all. It's about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don't get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can't work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that's anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there's much more balance between them and workers.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don't think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.
@Buelldozer is right, he's just being extra spicy about it.
@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.
You're darn right I'm being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It's astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It's disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I'm a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn't going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it's supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I'm of the opinion that we can't expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won't represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don't lap up corporate propaganda.
I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing “blue collar” workers again won’t cut it, because many of us are not that now.
and they don’t get maimed by robots much
???
- Is there evidence that Chinese workers have high high rates of this?
- People are getting maimed at Tesla plants all the time.
- The US created the neoliberal WTO to crush labor rights worldwide, worker safety among them. The only reason the US is sabotaging the WTO now is because that system no longer favors it.
.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well
UAW labor doesn't cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That's before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive.
That's because they don't have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That's why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
Toyota plants aren't unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
"paid well" only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they're paid relatively well. They're not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
an anti-worker product
Lolz. Lmao even.
a threat to US auto industry? You promise? Cus US auto industry is a climate killing powerhouse of gas guzzling SUV's. Any politicians wanting to pretend to be capitalist, or to be in favor of the environment, let me buy this car.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv, and thats all they wanna sell us. My only friends with new car $ bought a small wagon, which is all I'd want myself.
Those huge electric pickups are too heavy for our guardrails on top of everything else; it's insane and dangerous to let the big three make car culture here even worse.
I know so many boomers with fucking monster vehicles. Even my car nut friends daily drive sedans and small EV's. We're not idiots or rich.
Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?
Except it’s not capitalism when China does it, it’s socialism. The EV manufacturers like BYD have had massive subsidies from the state to bring those products to market, and that level of state support and intervention is not palatable to Americans.
Political, Climate change and National Security concerns aside, the subsidies are how the US government are about to justify the tariffs.
So are massive subsidies only socialism when China does it?
The US has been doing that for decades.
yes but then the US doesn’t expect to sell huge quantities of its cars in China and upset the market. Nor would China permit that.
I don't want a Chinese car but at the same time if American automakers are going to continue refusing to make affordable electric cars and only give massive SUVs and trucks as our gas options then it seems like that's pretty much the choice we'll be left with.
Edit: if this frightens the Biden administration then they need to find a way to put pressure on American manufacturers to make some decent vehicles.
I'm really not a fan of China, but I'm inclined to agree. We need smaller, more affordable vehicles. SUVs are antiquated, and trucks are largely decorative for most of the population. We need smaller, lighter vehicles. Though we also should be investing much more into mass transit rather than (largely redundant) highways and roads anyways, as it's a huge waste of taxpayer money. Keep the key highways, build rail to reduce reliance on shit we shouldn't really be rebuilding anyways. A lot of highways are going to be hitting the end of their useful lives soon, anyways, and require rebuilds.
The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done?
Direct sales, which is becoming increasingly popular in a car market where dealership market ups price people out of purchases.
Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
We'll see how long that lasts. Dealerships are the last great American petty aristocracy in a business environment that's increasingly all about absolute monarchies. Tesla has already been lobbying hard to overturn the ban on direct sales in Texas, and is doing plenty to end-run the system in the meanwhile. Amazon would love to get into the automotive market (we'll see where they go with their Rivian partnership). Silicon Valley hates these guys for getting in the way of their own drop shipping schemes. And its just a matter of time before the dam bursts.
Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It's not a threat, it's an opportunity.
So, there's a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called "Zero to One", in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.
The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We've passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don't want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we've unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.
The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.
Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don't integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they're not welcome in our country.