Do we really need to do public shaming?
Fedigrow
To discuss how to grow and manage communities / magazines on Lemmy, Mbin, Piefed and Sublinks
You're not the first one to point it out, maybe I should remove this post.
To answer your question, as I said in another comment, I wanted to use this example for when people ask “how does a public modlog make Lemmy better than Reddit”, which is a question that comes up quite once in a while: https://feddit.org/post/4920887/3235141
We also public shame mods all the time on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com, no sure why potential trolls could not be called out too.
the power tripping bastards community often goes off the rails and becomes a hate fest, many many many times, people just go there to relitigate and rage, and the brigading gets out of hand.
A few times we identify a real mod issue, but the current format is chaotic
Interesting.
While there are definitely issues sometimes (but then the mods of the community usually lock the threads), it's been quite useful to show how biased some moderation actions are sometimes performed.
It also allows to suggest alternatives. !world@quokk.au definitely took off after a few reports about !world@lemmy.world
Sure, there is utility, but right now it is less about "did a mod follow the posted rules" and more about "do I agree with the rule".... which we have seen in the last week's news cycle, power tripping bastards has gotten super toxic.
The forum to moderate moderators needs strong moderation :)
It'd need a heavy mod hand methinks, otherwise people'll just be forming gangs on a mf after they get butthurt inna argument. I don't have first-hand experience but i have been around the Internet a long time, figger there's probably a reason most places don't allow doxxing and it's not cuz "it's wrong" and more cuz it's "exhausting" to clean
Name and shame is a good way to discourage bad behaviors
Doesn't seem that effective if they can just delete their account and start a new one.
That's a great example of a toxic redditor coming to the fediverse hoping people would tolerate his behaviour, but surprise surprise:
we don't
...and gets banned lol.
They didn't even get banned (except from SJW, but that's only one instance), I think they just deleted their account
A community dedicated to getting mad at people will quickly become just as toxic, if not more so.
I think its not a great idea.
Mods are like politicians, they need to be held accountable. Users are like the citizens/residents, if someone did something wrong, there should be judgement by the "court system" or in case of an online forum, judged by moderators. A civillian not involved in politics (aka: doing forum moderation) shouldn't face as much scrutiny as a politician.
We protest when politicians do bad things. But we don't form a mob and go to a civillian's house to harass them when they do bad things, that just brings the pitfork mob mentality. A user who isn't doing moderation shouldn't have to face a mob, such a community is just gonna become a place to harass users.
TLDR: Moderators should face more scrutiny than users. Users shouldn't have to face a mob's judgement everytime whenever there's perceived wrongdoing.
No
I don't think we need that kinda community anymore, pretty sure we already have similar community
I agree that some Lemmy users are annoying and as bad as Reddit. But, man, if you behave like that, you're no better lol, in fact worse.
I agree with @OpenStars@piefed.social, I started using recently PieFed and even contributed to the code, and PieFed seems to have a good feature specific to this case, like reputation points (though I have a feeling this could also be abused?)
Maybe instead of spending times creating community like that, how about we contribute on making high-quality content on the threadiverse?
That's what I attempt to do on !publictransport@slrpnk.net anyway
Well said!
This I disagree with, b/c BOTH activities are necessary to help the Fediverse thrive. As Blaze pointed out, there are many niche communities starting to form here, already a year and a half past the Rexodus, and yet even ONE (or two) toxic interactions is more likely to send someone away from here than the presence of one (or two) additional communities is likely to entice them to remain.
You are not wrong in that we DO need additional content and communities like that - so kudos on that one!:-) - but we ALSO need to decrease the toxicity level significantly, if we want to entice the less thick-skinned mainstream normal people (who don't use Arch Linux btw) to join us here.
You don't have to ask, you can just create this community, as long as it abides by the instance's community guidelines, and see how it goes. But you will also have to live with the drama it creates, and that may far outlast the community well after it closes. I can already tell you, the moment this community begins getting tracking is the moment you will also see those problem users creating their own versions of it to dispel your claims with their own point of view. This will polarize instances even more by those that allow these types of communities and those that don't.
If it's worth doing it may be worth some effort? But I suppose you are saying that the cost to effort ratio is too high? That does seem a good point: what is all that effort really gaining for anyone? If the goal is to educate people how to make use of the modlog, perhaps using accounts that have already deleted themselves so as to not call out anyone still active here, there are already communities for such generic Fediverse content.
I 100% agree with you that making the tone here a little more positive would be a huge benefit. But unfortunately, I think the proposed community would be likely to do the opposite. The reality seems to be that toxicity and social media go together to some extent, at least as they exist today. The only proven solution I’ve seen is heavy-handed moderation which is labor intensive and can have other downsides.
But I like the brainstorming nonetheless. Keep the ideas flowing.
even contributed to the code
NOICE! Thank you for your service to this community:-).
PieFed seems to have a good feature specific to this case
Yeah, it's odd b/c on the one hand it has SO VERY MANY features that Lemmy lacks - such as categories of communities, hashtags in posts, YouTube video embedding, showing the community sidebar area for every post (not just on the community page), even on a mobile, and using radically (~25-fold) less mobile data to load 5x more posts at a time than Lemmy. Also, I just subscribed to a new community created last week, and like 2 seconds later it had already pulled in all the old posts.
On the other hand, PieFed lacks many of the more "foundational" feature sets, e.g. user tagging (so I just happened to see this, but the @OpenStars@piefed.social will not alert me to the tagging as you would expect & hope), and a good fraction of the time I get a Notification to something that I have no idea what it is - sometimes I cannot click it at all, sometimes it is from users that I've blocked, sometimes it is buried in the "continue thread" or whatever that is called where instead of showing the content on the page you have to click to go to some other page entirely (yet the Notifications refuses to follow that), or inside an auto-collapsed or even an auto-removed comment (but at the time that I replied to it, it had not yet been auto-removed, which is why I just turned that entire feature off). I am glad that you are helping bring it up to feature parity with Lemmy though!:-) It is such a fantastic project that I think will radically transform people's experiences on the Fediverse, by offering them tools that at this point I doubt that Lemmy ever will.
reputation points (though I have a feeling this could also be abused?)
And yes I do share that same worry. OTOH, people can already do it now, it's just that it takes far more effort, and for the most part the existing options are "block the account" or "nothing", or in certain Lemmy apps (I don't know which ones, maybe Connect or Sync b/c they seem more full-featured?) you can add your own custom label to the account like "hey this person is fun to talk to but don't ever bring up Hamas or YOU WILL BE SORRY". Probably more than one person has added "long-winded" to describe me:-). The beauty of that is that it allows people the CHOICE to do something other than the binary remove vs. retain, like they could read but not reply, or reply but not go into as much depth as they usually would, or like for a new account the content of their reply might be more explanatory than it would if they knew that someone had had an account here for more than a year. Knowledge is power:-). As such, it might be abused:-(. Then again, it might not?:-D
Since we are talking about merely placing labels next to a username - not like automatically blocking or hiding content from people (that capability does not exist... yet) - I don't worry so much about its potential for abuse at the current stage. But even if the stage were to be advanced - which it seems NOT ready yet atm, imho, but if it were more fully developed - then I should add: even the trolls might have more fun on the Fediverse that way, if the people most likely to respond negatively to them have hidden their content? Thereby leaving only those most likely to respond favorably to their antics.
So for me, it's not that it's a 100% bad thing, just that care must be taken in its further development. If the actual restrictions were quite narrow, and the mere labelling wider, that does not sound like a bad trade-off to me?
Gonna go out-of-topic from the post but I need this to get this off my chest:
Do you know what prompted me to contribute to PieFed's code?
Recently, a developer of Lemmy straight up posted a link to a website to a China propaganda in a community in my Lemmy instance. Yes, a propaganda.
Tbf, slrpnk.net receives a lot of China-related posts, and that's due to China out-competing other countries in many sectors (EV, for example), and in those post OP usually critical enough to acknowledge that while China achievement is good, the crimes Chinese government has done shouldn't be ignored.
But the post is different. From the domain name, the "About Us" section of the website, the bias in the article. Clearly this was posted with an ill intention. A developer of a platform uses the platform to spread propaganda. Disgusting
I downvoted said post, but I hesitated to call it out. Because, I'm gonna be honest--I'm genuinely scared of interacting with those kind of people. And I don't want to have a deep discussion about politics or propaganda anyway. I'm not that kind of person.
This made me realize, I also don't tell people I use fediverse or don't reach out to other forums to open a community in Lemmy. This is because the fediverse, or at least Lemmy have a bad reputation: tankie.
There is a saying in my country that says "One person ate jackfruit, everyone got the sap". The genocide deniers ate the jackfruit, and everyone got the sap. The genocide deniers ruined fediverse's name and everyone else got the consequence. I don't wanna recommend people to use softwares made by those terrible people, and I doubt most people want to use softwares that has a reputation of being a genocide deniers playgrounds.
Honestly OP from the link in the post (https://feddit.org/post/4920887) kind of made a good point.
At this point, I would prefer just quitting Lemmy altogether.
But I remembered, the fediverse is an open source effort. I use open source software a lot. I feel like I need to give back something. And I have a community that still needed moderating.
And recently I found PieFed that is still in early days but show some great promise. I happen to understand HTMX (I use it in my personal projects) and Python (I learned it way back in junior high). Seems perfect to me, so I contributed one.
Honestly, it feels kinda unfair to me that software made by a genocide deniers gets the funding, meanwhile a software made by a good person (PieFed) has to be a hobby project.
A developer of a platform uses the platform to spread propaganda. Disgusting
Welcome to Lemmy. Now you know why a lot of people are hoping for Piefed to reach feature-parity with Lemmy.
Thank you for contributing to the codebase by the way
Should we consider having a similar community for toxic users?
I think that it's a bad idea because that community would become a pitchfork emporium. Users posting there would be a textbook example of users that we shouldn't want in the Fediverse: whiny, entitled, assumptive, passive aggressive. It's how the cookie crumbles with this sort of meta-community.
To avoid that, you'd need to restrict the scope and make it objective, like !yepowertrippinbastards does - that comm is only about mods/admins acting as such and abusing their power.
Good point
The problem is, you only would see the content that was removed. It is also extremely one sided. The modlog isn't what it was, and now they have removed legitimacy from it by removing the names of the mods and admins who did the enforcement, even though it was already relatively easy and straightforward to create a moderation alt. So you don't get the visibility of any moderator abuse either. There's also the fact that moderators and admins do lie.
A community dedicated to calling out power tripping mods exists because it affects everybody and there is no moderator of moderator decisions, save for admins who, if not part of the problem also have other problems to deal with. There is no power tripping user because users basically have no power. The counter to yepowertrippingbastards for users already exists, it's called being a moderator, and they get to "post" about it in a modlog where their and only their word gets posted, where they are allowed to do it anonymously under the cover of seeming but not actual unanimity, and where users don't get a chance to tell their side of the story. Mods also have their own internal groups to address concerns of problem users.
Having a public community about it both makes those moderators who participate seem even more insecure and would also be a source of drama as they try to create a new version of the modlog in community form while finding out communities are not homogeneous.
Bro looked in the mirror and got such a hard whiplash he astral-projected into a parallel universe where he's a paragon of virtue
Maybe !fediverselore@lemmy.ca is a good place to post this.
Could be, but I also thinking about a specific community to call out bad faith users or trolls. Kind of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com but for users
LMFAO
Because your obnoxious obliviousness makes light on the idea of piracy. Like you expect it to hold your hand in every step of the way. Plus, I am overwhelmingly tired of people like you with that kind of attitude. You’re the kind of pirate that downloads and barely learns. The ones always asking if they need a VPN for the thousandth time when we’ve told you for the thousandth time and more, that you do. So, no, I do not have to treat you with kindness. Enjoy the block. Keep raining those petty downvotes of yours for all I care.
If someone is asking me about same Piracy Question. I am gonna tell them 1000 times. Because I was also noob at some point.
Fedigrow:
To discuss how to grow and manage communities / magazines on Lemmy, Mbin, Piefed and Sublinks
How is this post relevant to this community? You posted it here because you're a moderator so you know it won't be removed?
Dunking on someone who was (rightfully) banned isn't the kind of post that fosters good community interactions. The moderation system works, that's great. Can we not give more oxygen to the troll's commentary?
Na, what will it do apart from bringing trolls and other asshats more attention? Attention is what they want.
Lemmy is worse than reddit though. Especially if you don't block .ml.
Though they have predictably gotten quieter now that the election is over.
Which is worse depends a lot on how much you weight each of their flaws. Personally I think that Lemmy still behaves better than Reddit, even considering that Lemmy behaviour is getting worse over time.
So, focusing solely on aspects where Lemmy is worse than Reddit, IMO:
- witch hunting
- intrusive soapboxing
- bossing others around with uncalled advice
I don't want to come off all self-righteous as in "PieFed has that already"... but OTOH it's relevant that, yeah, PieFed has something for that already.😄 It is described at https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/, and I think its way too sensitive atm, labeling users of comics in particular as potentially troublesome bc they post more than comment, but anyway it seems relevant here as an attempt to do what you are saying: to allow for some measure of an account's "reputation" across the Fediverse, similar to what those aforementioned communities do irt mods to let people know about stuff that they may find pertinent as they make decisions about what to do about it - like not post to certain communities and instead help others grow. In short it's a tool that helps shorten the learning curve rather than make each person have to do all that work all entirely on their own.
So someone downvotes twice as often as they upvote?
Someone has twice as many heavily-downvoted comments as positive or neutral? Also a paddling. It also helps provide additional choices beyond merely a moderator's power to "remove vs. allow" - one day a user could perhaps make their own thresholds, or like automatically collapse (to deemphasize, but while still retaining) a comment from such a user. Or not - I have some of that turned OFF at PieFed, but it's awesome that it's there if someone were to want that.
Someone has a brand-new account merely hours old? That's NOT a paddling, but it is worth its own unique icon to let recipients know that they are dealing with a newborn (ofc they could be an alt) who may not realize how the Fediverse works.
So someone downvotes twice as often as they upvote?
What's wrong with that? I find it much easier to downvote than to upvote, but most threads or comments I don't vote at all. It's like me reviewing my Steam games. I barely ever do it, but usually I do negative reviews, because you see all what is wrong in a game and want to voice your frustration about it.
Just in general, it's considered more polite Netiquete to make a comment explaining why the content was not deemed acceptable to you - enough to downvote it rather than simply scroll downwards, the latter of which costs you nothing.
As for why: how would you feel in return if like 50 people simply downvoted your comment here, while offering zero explanation about why they did that?
Anyway, it's just a label, much like a new account gets a label until it's not new anymore. What people DO with the label is up to them - perhaps they'll skip over everything you say, but more likely they'll simply ignore it (that's what I do:-P). What we do is up to us, but how people choose to receive it is up to them...
1.) NOWHERE is worse than reddit mods. They can diaf.
B.) I love the modlog. Half the time I have to go "what the hell did I say to get deleted?!" and dredging it up to see what I said and the reason, which is usually "rule 5" or the like. I also like seeing deleted posts responding to mine that got deleted before I read them. Half the time they didn't say anything particularly bad towards me, just used a bad word or went off topic.
LASTLY.) Any changes that keep mods and admins out of dictatorial power is perfect. I got banned on Reddit for "being racist" because I called out criminals and some other jackasses were saying "black people" as the word "criminal" even though the crimes were in a predominantly white area so it was a bad assumption from the start. I have a black GF and my post history has ZERO racist comments or remarks. I asked the mod and they said it was because I was a racist like everyone else getting banned and blocked me and reported me for harassing them. I appealed it to the reddit admins, they did nothing and said the mod was in the right and i started getting banned in other subs for nonsense, only to find out from others they all share a couple mods...of note, this is how it went down, this isn't me editing the story in my favor, it was exactly that absurd and blatant...don't let Lemmy become THAT bullshit.
I'm kind of upset that this 'toxic' person came from the same instance as I'm using. Most people I encounter on the local pages aren't bad folks.
This idea sounds conceptually similar to something like kiwifarms, which seems like a red flag imo
oh i recently had an interaction with this person. i genuinely felt they needed to go outside