There are also millions of people with intellectual challenges and horrid childhoods who do NOT go out and murder people.
this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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People react differently to being abused by people and society for years and years, until they have every last ounce of hope drained from them.
No the deciding factor is to decide at some point that others are supposedly at fault for your problems and that they deserve to be hurt for it.
others are supposedly at fault
So you're saying it's his fault his mother drank and that he was abused by his foster parents?
???
It's his fault that he killed people.
Because of his problems, that largely weren't his fault.
What do you think is the difference between people who decide to hurt and murder others and those who don't?
The people dismissing this somewhat miss the bigger picture, that statistically this had to happen because there are so many like him there.
Though I'm not sure why this guy calls the act 'fantastic', I doubt even the shooter thought what he did was fantastic, unless I'm out of the loop...
Problematic is that some people try to frame it as if his problems were the cause and reason for his actions. While obviously the point where people turn into mass shooters is when they decide to hate and blame (a specific group of) other people for it.
There is far from enough help for people who are struggling, but to prevent mass shootings the media probably shouldn't talk about them this much and we need to look at people much closer who turn their hatred outwards.
I fail to see the relevance of this post and it comes off as if people want to victim blame. A lot of people have problems. A lot of people get bullied. Just think about the thousands of women who get raped and sexually abused throughout their lifes.
Mass shooter fit a profile, sure. They obviously aren't happy people. But the reason why they do this is not what has happened to them in their lifes. Otherwise we would have a lot more mass shooters.
But the reason why they do this is not what has happened to them in their lifes.
We are our memories.
We are the decisions we make. Each person is the sum of how they react to stimulus.
We are the decisions we make.
And we make those decisions based on our life experiences, also known as memories.
We have enough examples of (mass) murderes who did not have horrible lives and so many people have horrible lives and don't kill others.
It's illogical to draw the conclusion it's a bad life that turns people into murderes.
A better course of action would be higher intervention at the point were someone decides: "others should suffer for my problems".
We have enough examples of (mass) murderes who did not have horrible lives
I'm something of a news junkie and I haven't heard of them. Maybe there's a one-off here or there, but the majority of them would not have what you described.
and so many people have horrible lives and don’t kill others.
Well yes, of course. Mental illness is a spectrum, it's a bell curve, it's not an on and off switch, when it comes to murder.
It’s illogical to draw the conclusion it’s a bad life that turns people into murderes.
I disagree with this, strongly.
Honestly that sounds like an opinion of someone who believes illogically in that we're always "captains of our ship" and we're always perfect mentally, and that we always can make decisions free of illness.
Humanity is just not like that, we have emotions and can have mental illness, and sometimes they drive us to do things that we regret later on or uncontrolling of during.
Mental illness can affect our perception of things to the point where we do things that seem logical to us but that society would think is completely illogical, like murder.
I think you have trouble differentiating between causes and fault or responsibility. English is not my native language, so perhaps I get the inuendo wrong. But claiming "Cruz' crime was 100 % society's fault" absolves the murderer of all his responsibility.
Society is not responsible for the decisions you make, it's your decision alone. You don't get to blame others for your decisions to hurt and murder people.
I think you have trouble differentiating between causes and fault or responsibility.
Very dismissal of you to think that of me.
For the record, I don't.
“Cruz’ crime was 100 % society’s fault”
Nobody ever said 100%.
Society is not responsible for the decisions you make, it’s your decision alone.
We affect each other more than we realise and/or want to admit. Humans are social creatures.
And again, not talking in absolutes.
Nobody ever said 100%.
Perhaps take a look at the post again.
Nobody ever said 100%.
Perhaps take a look at the post again.
I went up several levels and reviewed everything I said, and didn't see where I ever said 100%.
You want to point it out to me?
The topic of the post, like what this thread is about??
You want to point it out to me?
Oh FFS. I was talking about our and other people's conversation here on Lemmy about the article, and not the article itself that you linked.
Did society make you ignore the context of my original post?
I think you have trouble differentiating between causes and fault or responsibility. English is not my native language, so perhaps I get the inuendo wrong. But claiming “Cruz’ crime was 100 % society’s fault” absolves the murderer of all his responsibility.
That was the original comment by you that I replied to. The tone of that paragraph was suggesting you were speaking about me specifically.
As English is not your first language, I would suggest next time separating that paragraph into two paragraphs, or adding to the end of that paragraph something along the lines of "as the original article states".
I would suggest you understand comment hierarchy on Lemmy. You responded to my comment, which was in the tree of a direct response to the topic. Not to you or any other comment.
You can see that by the fact that there's no line next to my post when you look at top layer of hierarchy:
I would suggest you understand comment hierarchy on Lemmy.
I notice you keep trying to "Kill the Messenger" by challenging my understanding and intelligence level.
I've made plenty of posts throughout the decades to understand how it works. Also, English is my primary language.
I stand by my comments to you about how you worded your comment that I replied to.
Finally, a reminder of what I said, since the screen pic that you posted is not referring to the comment that I was replying to, and speaking about...
I think you have trouble differentiating between causes and fault or responsibility. English is not my native language, so perhaps I get the inuendo wrong. But claiming “Cruz’ crime was 100 % society’s fault” absolves the murderer of all his responsibility.
That was the original comment by you that I replied to. The tone of that paragraph was suggesting you were speaking about me specifically.
As English is not your first language, I would suggest next time separating that paragraph into two paragraphs, or adding to the end of that paragraph something along the lines of “as the original article states”.
"Killing the messenger" apparently means to "attack the bringer of bad news". That doesn't seem to be a good fit for the situation at all. I suggest you read the definition again. I suppose what you meant to say is an "ad hominem attack".
Well, I am certainly sorry when it came off as an insult to you. But it's quite the stretch to assume I wanted to challenge your intelligence by simply trying to understand what could be the underlying cause for you to write something that seemed simply untrue to me.
I think you're missing the point in that we already have a lot of mass shooters because society has failed them.
This is a symptom of our society.
Trying to absolve society of its involvement is essentially just turning a blind eye to the problem and hoping it goes away. Which is exactly the problem that we have.
This is simply taking an actual nuanced thought on the situation instead of letting your emotions regulate your thoughts and turning everything into a false dichotomy.
It is not society which is failing when people turn to murder it's the people who turn to murder who are failing.
The focus should be on why a few people decide it's okay to hate other groups of people so much, that they murder them.
To believe it's society's fault people are turning into murderes and now it's society's responsibility to dissolve each and every problem anyone could have ever is completely unrealistic.
People will always have problems. And there will always be people who believe other lives are worth less. It's much more likely to be able to do something against the latter than doing something against people having problems.
can we accept people are going to react to their shitty lives differently, and just because it doesn't make you go on a murderous spree, it doesn't mean that it is the case for everybody. the real solution isn't to make these dumb arguments against shooters etc. which might be as correct as you want them to but it's to make lives fucking dignifying in a situation where one may not be thinking rationally. if one doesn't have the strength to not make a certain choice, calling them pathetic doesn't fix shit. every single one of us is delusional.
It's important though that people get more aware when they notice in themselves that they start to become hateful against groups of people or people in general. That's the one big difference between people with problems and people with problems who start to commit atrocities.
Instead of focusing on the "woe is me" aspect there should be more investment into understanding why some people turn against others.
…with ready access to guns.
So much commentary here focusing on societal ills, but even in other countries with lots of poverty and shit social services they don’t have individuals committing random mass murders like us because they don’t have a collection of high capacity personal arms. There’s plenty of people in other countries that have commonality with his life, yet they don’t commit mass murder. Yeah, shootings do happen elsewhere…but not like in the US, and the difference is access to firearms.
In the UK knife crime is a big issue for those in poverty or those in struggling cities. Having access to weapons of course increases risks of people dying ot those weapons, but removing guns isn't going to just convince everyone trying to lash out to just lie down and suffer in silence.
I don't live in a contry with civilan access to guns, and I don't live in a situation where I feel the need to protect myself with weapons, so I'm not gonna stake a claim in the gun control debate. But if you ban every weapon ever conceivable, without addressing why people are becoming violent to begin with, people will just result to using their own hands (or perhaps more realistically, going above the legal means. Like with Shinzo Abe's assassination).
Yeah, you treat the symptom, but in an effective way. It's called mass shooting, because so many people die, when guns are involved. You do not have this, if there is someone trying the same with a knife. Banning guns is a band aid during the time necessary to fix the underlying problem.
It's also impossible given the state of partisan gridlock and the constitutional amendment necessary.
Fortunately, actually solving problems here is far simpler than asinine bans.
There will still be kids slipping through. They also say it themselves:
Too often in politics it becomes an either-or proposition. Gun control or mental health. Our research says that none of these solutions is perfect on its own. We have to do multiple things at one time and put them together as a comprehensive package. People have to be comfortable with complexity and that’s not always easy.
And what of the vast majority of shooters who don't have such shit circumstances? Lmfao.
Columbine? Las Vegas?
What about the straight up racists going on killing sprees? Aka white people who listen to too much am radio and YouTube?
Congrats, you've cherry picked one of like two well known shooters who were like this. Quit victim blaming you rotten fuck.
Edit: For more visibility. I've been to my fair share of active threat conferences, meetings, trainings, etc.
There is no single profile for a mass shooter. Your best chance at getting any one thing correct about them is that they're male. 94% chance.
According to the FBI, there is no single warning sign, checklist,or algorithm to identify a mass shooter before an attack.
How about some possible profiles?
This profile includes characteristics such as:
• A young white male who feels entitled and has been bullied
• Access to guns in the home
• An honor roll student from a good community
• Intolerant attitudes toward racial or religious minorities
• Possesses a superiority attitude
• Poor coping skills
• Exhibits distorted thinking relative to the negativity he perceives from others
PDF Warnings:
https://lhatrustfunds.com/assets/uploads/documents/FBI-Profile-Active-Shooter.pdf
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre-attack-behaviors-of-active-shooters-in-us-2000-2013.pdf/view
Okay, what about mental health aspects? Yes, suicidality is an incredible predictor. But guess what? It's only there in 30% of cases prior to the shooting.
Suicidality was found to be a strong predictor of perpetration of mass shootings. Of all mass shooters in the The Violence Project database, 30% were suicidal prior to the shooting. An additional 39% were suicidal during the shooting. Those numbers were significantly higher for younger shooters, with K-12 students who engaged in mass shootings found to be suicidal in 92% of instances and college/university students who engaged in mass shooting suicidal 100% of the time.
Oh no it must've been trauma then! Everyone knows someone who suffered abuse is more likely to abuse right!? No.
In terms of past trauma, 31% of persons who perpetrated mass shootings were found to have experiences of severe childhood trauma, and over 80% were in crisis
Want to know the real profile? Massive change in personality. Wants access to guns. They'll TELL someone they're thinking about hurting others. Loneliness.
NONE of which requires anything even remotely mentioned in that farce of a greentext lol.