this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
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This is not my personal opinion, I know Gen Z men who voted for Harris. But the voter demographics really speak for themselves, and maybe now people will look at the radicalization of young men as a serious (but solvable) issue.

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[–] w3dd1e@lemm.ee 65 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

It seems counter intuitive but I don’t think Gen Z is as good with technology as most people assume they are.

I think they just believe everything they see on YouTube and TikTok. Those algorithms just feed people what they want to see and don’t challenge anyone.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 27 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Who thinks they're good with technology? They've never had technology that requires any more knowledge than how to swipe. They're shit with technology.

[–] dumbass@leminal.space 5 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Who thinks they're good with technology?

Millennials, it's the only thing we're good at, we suck at everything else...

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 6 points 2 hours ago

I meant who thinks zoomers are good with technology.

[–] frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

We killed napkins motherfucker

Also stigma about depression, no stigma when you're the majority.

[–] minibyte@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

We killed napkins

Do you use your sleeve? I don’t understand.

[–] w3dd1e@lemm.ee 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I mean that many people just assume younger generations are better with technology.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Do they? That's what I'm asking, who thinks that? I don't know anyone who thinks zoomers are good with technology.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 minutes ago

It's absolutely a belief and it used to be true. For millennials especially it was true. We grew up with technology around us, but they required effort from the user to make them work. These created a lot of self-learned resourceful technologically literate people.

Modern technology almost all wants to prevent you from messing with them. They function out of the box and limit your ability to modify them. This has created a lot of people who can't understand how technology works beyond the user interface. They're great at using a touch-screen, but they don't understand what the device is doing beyond that.

[–] w3dd1e@lemm.ee 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I personally don’t, but it’s a sentiment I hear around me from time to time in the workplace or on TV.

[–] keegomatic@lemmy.world 1 points 58 minutes ago

That’s been a common and roughly true trope for a long time, but I think we may have hit the point where high technology has been ubiquitous for multiple generations now and it’s probably not quite as true as it once was (that the younger generation is always better with technology than the previous)

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 36 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

Yep. Older people (Millennial, Gen X) grew up with PCs that could be heavily modified, run any program, even repurposed to run Linux if you were brave. Later generations who grew up with phones only get to use the apps that Apple / Google approve of. There's no hacking the system, so you get whatever the algorithm says you get.

Older people grew up on BBSes and later "Bulletin Boards", which were mostly the same thing just with prettier graphics, also with email, and sometimes instant messengers. Communities were smaller, and there was no mediator. Younger ones are stuck in apps that are designed around engagement, with a "celebrity" vs "fan" content model where it's all geared around followers and likes. It's all parasocial relationships from the "fan" side, and trying to keep up with whatever the algorithm wants from the creator side.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 8 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

It really fucking sucks that platforms that used to be designed to allow 2-way communication between equals have flopped so hard trying to follow the exact model you just outlined. For all its faults, Facebook used to be a really great place to keep in contact with long distance friends and family. Now it won't even show you anything anyone in your friends list posts, and the options for interacting are completely neutered on their mobile site. It went from being a site I enjoyed, to a site I despise. And there aren't any alternatives. The era of a platform for friends and family is over.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 3 points 13 minutes ago

The only reason Facebook was at all successful is that they made it easy to migrate over from MySpace.

Before Facebook people weren't locked into their social networks. In the early days of BBSes you were mostly on your local BBS, but you could sometimes communicate with another BBS if your BBS was part of FidoNet. When instant messengers like ICQ, AIM, MSN Messenger, etc. became popular, it was common to use a unified program that logged into all of them at once. But, already there was corporate consolidation. BBSes were often run by people out of their own homes, or at least by hobbyists. The early messengers were all commercial products.

Then there were the early social media websites: SixDegrees.com, Classmates.com, Friendster, (LinkedIn), MySpace, Orkut, and in 2004 Facebook. At first Facebook was closed to anybody who wasn't a US university student. You even had to have an email address from a US university to register. But, when they wanted to grow, they made it easy to migrate from other sites, especially MySpace. They released a tool that allowed you to basically stay in touch with your MySpace friends from Facebook, but not the other way around. That slowly drained people away from MySpace until it eventually collapsed. These days, thanks to section 1201 of the DMCA, if you tried to release a tool that allowed people to migrate away from Facebook, you'd be nuked from orbit.

Now, every social media site is a walled garden protected by a moat and an electric fence. Every one is owned by companies worth more than $1b. People can't leave because the FOMO is too strong, but they don't want to stay because the sites are pure shit. You see that especially with Twitter. It is absolute shit since Musk took over, but many people feel like they can't leave. And, when people do leave, do they go to Mastodon, which isn't owned by a corporation? Nope, they mostly go to Threads, owned by Meta, or Bluesky, owned by a lot of the same people behind Twitter.

Unless the governments of the world step in and either break up the tech giants, or require that they are interoperable, I don't know how we back out of this shitty situation.

[–] don@lemm.ee 3 points 3 hours ago

Xennial here, you speak pure facts.

[–] JordanfireStar@lemmy.world 41 points 5 hours ago (5 children)

White women as a majority still voted for Trump. Why just blame men?

[–] Madison420@lemmy.world 10 points 5 hours ago

The result of telling women they could vote for someone their husband didn't vote for was the right flipping out and essentially calling them property. How likely do you think speaking up is when you are stuck financially to someone who sees you as a servant rather than a person?

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[–] KoalaUnknown@lemmy.world 37 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Social media. Gen Z grew up with youtubers and influencers pushing their beliefs.

[–] _____@lemm.ee 8 points 5 hours ago

in the age of misinformation and grifting mind you. it's not just the technology, we've had youtube for 20 years

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 23 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

That's a pretty ignorant way to overgeneralize about a whole generation. I hoped I was leaving this kind of bullshit behind on reddit.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 17 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

Every flag-emoji in a user's profile name is a red-flag for a different mental illness.

But this is pure scapegoating. Even the most straightforward read on the turnout demographics tells us where the problem is.

Trump won the White People.

[–] goatmeal@midwest.social 2 points 2 hours ago

Just curious, do we get these breakdowns from exit polling or some other source?

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 9 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

Trump was expected to dominate the white vote. Hispanic voters were expected to be way more blue tho, especially after the recent "porto reeko" fiasco. I read that Hispanic males tended to prefer Trump but women liked Harris. The geography stats are unsurprising - more dems live in urban areas and more repubs in the smaller towns and wide open spaces. The huge surprise is that younger voters are so evenly divided. Maybe I'm just used to the constant noise on reddit that blames Trump on boomers. Now it will probably shift to "BuT ThEy GoT HiM StArTeD!"

All projections I've seen show Trump being below the number of votes Biden got in 2020, and Harris below what Trump got in 2020. The population grew by about 6 million people during that time. Overall the total voters should have increased, yet the number of votes decreased. That just tells you people stayed home.

[–] pizza_the_hutt@sh.itjust.works 100 points 8 hours ago (9 children)

There is a lot to be said here. I'll use my own experience as an example.

I'm a millennial male who had a terrible time as a young adult through my mid 30s. I grew up in a fairly religious/conservative area of the US, and I didn't have the ability to even start questioning that before my college years because literally everyone I knew was either a vocal supporter of or tacitly accepted that cultural status quo. Mental health issues were either not discussed or not recognized in any serious fashion. It wasn't until my late 20s that I finally understood that I had severe depression and anxiety and sought help, despite suffering from it since my early teenage years.

Socially, I never felt like I was cool enough or good enough. I didn't understand women, and the endless series of rejections and confusing encounters only served to erode my low self confidence further. I had no idea what a healthy relationship looked like because my parents were just going through the motions at that point, and the relationships I saw in TV shows and movies were incredibly shallow. The few people I considered friends did not support me in any positive way. I eventually kicked them to the curb, preferring solitude to being the butt of their jokes.

I was a prime target for recruitment for the alt-right: depressed, alone, disaffected, and ready to lash out. The only thing that kept me from going in that direction was a keen sense that the rhetoric was bullshit and its leaders only cared to take advantage of the rank-and-file to accumulate money and power. Many people I knew were not so perceptive and became victims of that movement.

My only saving grace was that I had a decent job with healthcare benefits, which allowed me to get the therapy I needed to overcome these challenges. Again, most people I knew did not have such resources. Nearly a decade later, I am now a family man with a wife and child. I am far happier than I have been at any other point in my life. Despite that, there is still plenty I don't understand. I don't have a good grasp of what positive masculinity looks like. I cannot point to anyone who has served as a good, male role-model in my life. I still don't have any close male friends with whom I can share my feelings and challenges.

However, I do understand how easily young men can be swayed to far-right crusades. Social media warped my view of reality, and it's far worse now than it was 10-15 years ago. Moreover, there is no alternative to far-right echo chambers for young men to commiserate and get help. Those spaces simply do not exist on the left. If you dare to complain or vent, you will immediately be told your problems don't matter and called a misogynist. I can readily call multiple conversations I had with liberals and feminists who rejected my problems, even being told that I was "living life on easy mode" because I was a man.

For all the women who are reading this, I get it. As a man, I don't have to worry about the government meddling in my bodily autonomy. For the most part, I don't have to worry about walking alone at night or being accosted or raped. I don't have to worry about being taking seriously at my job or being passed over for promotions because of my gender. However, none of that negates the challenges that young men are facing. Their gender does not save them from broken homes, abuse, mental health issues, a bad job market, degrading standards of living, student debt, double-standards, confusing and contradictory narratives surrounding dating and relationships, etc. Yes, privileged men with no right to complain do exist, but they are an extreme minority. The vast majority of young men are in a bad place, and the only people reaching out to help have ulterior motives. If you want things to change, try having some empathy. Maybe you will get empathy for your problems in return.

[–] bestboyfriendintheworld@sh.itjust.works 29 points 5 hours ago (4 children)

This. Men are more often victims of violent crime, homelessness, mental illness, suicides, do worse in school, incarceration, die in wars, work dangerous jobs. Classic male institutions, structures, and spaces don’t exist anymore like they used to.

Add to that that men showing emotions is still seen as weakness.

These issues aren’t addressed or even mentioned.

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[–] bdjegifjdvw@lemmy.world 19 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

As a Gen Z man who statistically should have fallen down the incel and alt-right pipeline but didn't, this echos exactly what I see in my generation. We don't have positive examples of Masculinity, and the left just yells at us that we're trash, when we struggle with things and most don't have many (or any) good friends to lean on. So of course they go to the alt right.

[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

There is only really Noel Deyzel from social media as a positive role model

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 10 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Thanks for relating all that - lots of information but worth the read. You largely summed up my own early existence in the first few paragraphs. My therapy came in the form of getting involved in theatre, which exposed me to all kinds of people and ideas, revamped my attitudes and saved me from embracing radical ideas that are more or less based on rejecting a society that rejects you. I think that same cynicism is common in people from many different backgrounds, who share the same alienation for all kinds of reasons.

I'll even add one - throughout my software career doing contract jobs, finding a new gig always took me 2-3 weeks and was very routine. When I turned 50 the 2-3 weeks abruptly and permanently became 2-3 months, and took a lot more effort. Apparently in that community I was suddenly too old. Only one recruiter let slip that age was the reason a potential client rejected me, but the sudden difference at 50 was stark. So I don't know what you do for a living but you might be facing that yourself when it's your time.

Anyway I totally agree about empathy. I don't know what it is but people seem to be constantly on guard nowadays. Their go-to assumption is to look for evil and refuse to accept simple mistakes. That and permanently crucifying anybody who does anything morally unacceptable, or ever did in their past. If somebody Likes the wrong tweet it's unforgivable and irredeemable. I don't recall another time when so many people were so militant about this attitude. Forgiveness used to mean compassion, now it means you're complicit, enabling, a shill, "just as bad," etc. I think we need to think of the glass houses analogy and stop pretending to be morally impeccable.

[–] el_eh_chase@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

That was a very thoughtfully written response. I can relate to a lot of your story and agree with your conclusions. There needs to be more outlets for men as an alternative to right wing communities. I hope you meet more liberals and feminists that are open-minded to men's hardships. I have to believe there are more reasonable people out there on the left than not.

[–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 hours ago

I have to believe there are more reasonable people out there on the left than not

There are, but online is where the psychopathic man haters feel free to let their colors fly. At union conventions and community meets, I only ever hear tame comments from the very obvious radfems.

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[–] Ragdoll_X@lemmy.world 75 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (7 children)

I was actually wondering how the gender gap changed in this election, and it wasn't at all what I was expecting:

According to exit polls by CNN Trump gained +2% of the male vote, and +5% of the female vote compared to 2020 - though women were still more likely to support Harris, of course.

An analysis by the AP found similar results, with the support from men under 45 increasing +7%, and women under 45 +6%, while for older men it decreased -1%, and for older women stayed the same.

Surprisingly, Trump's support among racial minority groups increased while white and older Americans increased support for Harris.

After thorough analysis and much thought I have ultimately concluded that I have absolutely no fucking clue what is going on with American politics.

[–] thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world 12 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

the real metric that matters is that way way less people voted. not many people changed their votes from last time. many people are simply convinced to stay home, and as always, that results in a Republican win. the propaganda that was most effective was all of the "Kamala is no true Scotsman, so you should just not vote". i believe this was lost by the people that "refused to vote for genocide". i think that's what accelerated the genocide.

[–] skibidi@lemmy.world 5 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

I really doubt double-digit millions of voters sat out because of Gaza.

Kamala's vote total is roughly in line with what would be expected looking at 2008, 2012, and 2016. The massive turnout in 2020 on the Dem side appears to be an abberation - it was unique circumstances with COVID and all that. On the Republican side, Trump ran slightly ahead of his 2020 performance, and well ahead of 2016.

It's basic electoral politics: Trump has succeeded at expanding his base of support and turning them out to vote reliably. The Democrats have not. No single issue is responsible for that.

You can blame protests or Gaza or third parties or whoever else you want - the truth remains that the Dem base from the Obama years is not large enough and not appropriately distributed to win an election against Trump's base; whatever else you think of the man, he has been very good at gaining and retaining support.

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[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 50 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (7 children)

It’s the economy. Look at the numbers for voters without a college degree, rural voters, and lower income voters. Trump won all of these groups. In the WaPo exit polls the issues are included, not just the demographics. For voters who think the economy is the most importantly issue and for voters who think the US economy is doing badly: Trump dominated.

The Democrats continue to fail at shedding their reputation for being out of touch with working class Americans. The only income bracket that Harris won was the $100,000+ group. This tells us that the Democrats are an upper middle class and upper class party.

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