Move over, Ford and Chevy: Kei trucks are pulling up as customers opt for smaller, cheaper vehicles : technology

[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How long until these are banned ?

[–] Crikeste@lemm.ee -1 points 2 months ago

Regardless of bans, I’ve heard these cars are INCREDIBLY hard to import. Not only is getting permits for them difficult, but many places selling them domestically have gone around the laws regarding them, resulting in people’s Kei trucks being taken by the government and shipped back to Japan on their dime.

It’s not an easy thing to get into.

[–] Blaster_M@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Reminder that due to the chicken tax, these vehicles have to be 25 years old before they can be imported.

The big problem is, these vehicles were built to 30 year old safety standards - no vehicle from the 1990's (except maybe a SAAB, and even then they're not strong enough anymore and will fail a small offset frontal) can compete with a modern car in safety requirements.

There is also the fact that these vehicles have been around for 25 years, and have that amount of age and wear on their platform - they won't be as strong as they originally were off the production line.

[–] catch22@programming.dev 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I call bs, a motorcycle provides way less protection. And which states are they illegal in? Lobbying and another money grab from corporations in our "free market" society. I would love one of these BTW.

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm always shocked by this. In a world with seatbelt laws, crumple zones, backup cameras, pinch protection, etc we allow people to ride motorcycles that consistently get injured or killed. How they haven't gotten banned or stupidly restricted is beyond me. Even with a motorcycle lane, getting in a wreck at 75mph would be seriously bad.

In my state, I'm pretty sure you can ride a motorcycle legally with a helmet and a tshirt on, but get pulled over and fined for not wearing a seatbelt, lol.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The seat belt is to prevent you from being thrown through the glass and body/frame of the vehicle. Because that's generally what kills unseatbelted people in a wreck. A motorcyclist will be thrown from their vehicle if hit but is much less likely to hit that vehicle at 70mph. That's why you dress for the slide so to speak. It's about how you land as much as anything. And when you're inside a vehicle and being tossed around you are basically a reverse pinata.

https://youtube.com/shorts/6nnc4-DjnUg?si=rauxW1b6LQOmhuho

[–] 9point6@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'm sorry, why the fuck aren't these street legal in more than half of the states? The article says something about safety, but these are street legal all over Europe where we have stronger safety regulations.

Also there's something I can't put my finger on about the journalist choosing a hero image of the van losing its cargo.

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

Probably because it's not safe to drive them around giant pickups who can't see over their hoods

[+] ssj2marx@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

[deleted]

[–] Astongt615@lemmy.one 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ford and Hyundai have tried to bring service to that market with the Maverick and Santa Cruz, respectively. My folks have one and love it, but I've found most people still complain because they "don't need that big if a truck" but then you mention towing/hauling capacity and they say "well why can't it just tow something small like an F150 does? I'm not trying to get a dually but if I didn't want to do X then I'd just get a car!" I suspect most people's "truck needs" would be accommodated but fomo and marketing leads buyers astray even when they already know what they want. Or they're fickle and just need something to complain about.

[–] HiddenLychee@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

What do you find people want to tow? I'm often at a loss when people bring this up because I've never once had a moment in my life where I was disappointed by the lack of towing capacity of my small car

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Note that Americans basically all drive automatic transmissions, those have a thing called a torque converter. Unless that part is actively cooled it's going to overheat when asked to do high-torque stuff over prolonged durations and as that active cooling needs space and weight it generally only comes with truck-sized vehicles.

In short: The reason Americans don't haul caravans and horses and boats with cars is because they can't drive stick.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

?

Every automatic transmission car sold since the 1970's and probably earlier has had a transmission cooler, right there alongside or in front of the radiator.

[–] interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Also all of them have locking torque converters so there is no energy loss at constant speed. Also also, unless going upward at an incline. Most of the power requirements come from aerodynamic drag, not rolling friction of the trailer.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You can't lock the converter when accelerating because ~~that's not a constant speed~~ you'll stall the motor under the torque load, and to accelerate you need to overcome momentum. Neither drag nor rolling friction are anywhere close to high torque.

And I have no idea what the previous poster meant with a transmission cooler, I guess it's a different thing because a torque converter very much is not a transmission, if you want to compare it to anything then to a clutch. In any case I've got that explanation from an actual American actual car mechanic and random lemmings aren't going to change my mind especially while making no mechanical sense.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Wow. The remaining 7,950,999,999 people on this planet now have something to be thankful for, because none of them are as wrong as you.

You clearly did not actually understand what your mechanic told you.

A transmission cooler is exactly what it sounds like. It is built exactly like a radiator and works the same way. It is mounted in front of or next to the radiator for the engine. On a lot of newer cars it is actually part of the main radiator. Transmission fluid flows through it and excess heat is dumped into the air. On many vehicles it's also served by the radiator fan, i.e. for situations where the vehicle is not getting airflow because it's not moving.

The torque converter is part of your automatic transmission literally operates by moving the transmission fluid. There is no separation between the transmission fluid used in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission where the hydraulic valves use it to actuate the clutch bands, etc. to shift gears. The same bath of transmission fluid is circulated through the torque converter, the rest of the transmission, and the transmission cooler.

This is not a truck thing. Even my dinkum Saturn SL I had when I was a teenager that was so pathetic it was literally made of plastic and did not crack 100 horsepower had a transmission cooler -- as designed from the factory. The vast majority of passenger vehicles made in the last half century or more with automatic transmissions have transmission coolers built in. It has nothing to do with towing, either.

Your torque converter absolutely can be locked under acceleration and in fact, nearly all vehicles equipped with a locking torque converter do so as part of their normal shifting pattern when moving up through their gears. This is observable from the driver's seat if you know what's happening. The locking and unlocking of the torque converter feels like an "extra gear" in between the gears. Some Japanese cars from the 80's have a "TC Locked" light on a dash that illuminates when the converter is locked and you can watch this happen in real time. The usual pattern is 1st gear, shift to 2nd gear, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 3rd, lock converter, unlock converter and shift to 4th, etc. A traditional automatic transmission only has 4 gear ratios, but it will feel like it has seven. Guess why.

Think about it real hard for a minute. A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch. If you could not lock the torque converter during acceleration, by the same logic you would not be able to fully release the clutch pedal during acceleration on a manual transmission car, either. It is glaringly obvious that this is not the case.

I am not a "random lemming." I have four decades of actual real world mechanical experience and have disassembled and rebuilt more transmissions, engines, and vehicles in general than you have probably sat in throughout your entire life.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

A locked torque converter is the same, mechanically, as a fully engaged clutch.

Which stalls the motor under high torque load.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Tell us you didn't read what I just wrote without telling us you didn't read it.

The engine will only stall under load if it is at so low of an RPM that it is generating insufficient torque to overcome the inertia. Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

Which is why your transmission has more than one gear.

Remember back 30 seconds ago when I told you to think? Actually try it this time. Or maybe plug some of your bullshit into Google first before continuing to make a fool of yourself in front of everybody.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Which if you are moving and in the correct gear for your speed is never.

In stop and go traffic it's practically always. The car needs to be able to handle that, it can't be rated higher than that situation.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Which is why automatics have torque converters and manuals have clutches. It's almost like we've come full circle or something!

Millions and millions of vehicles are driving on the world's roads right now, happily tooling along under the sound mechanical and physical principles known as "reality," completely heedless of your apparent inability to understand it.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes and a manual can slip the clutch, it's built for that. A torque converter can't slip the lock, it's not build for that, it has to stay open. And that generates a fuckton of heat.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

And? Come on, you're almost there. Just two more neurons to put together:

That's why the transmission cooler is there.

Wrap up: Your original claim that Americans "can't" tow due to predominantly driving automatic transmission cars, in addition to being an uncreative and tired thinly veiled attempt at insulting Americans, is not only wrong but also prima facie absurd.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity, or do you need a bigger one that only really fits a truck? How much additional radiator area do you need per additional ton of towing capacity (overcoming momentum, not tongue weight that can easily be zero just get a four-wheeled trailer)? For manuals, that's zero additional radiator area. For automatics, I'll leave the maths to you.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

And is the cooler in cars big enough to have noticeable towing capacity

Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle? This is publicly available information, right there on the internet. It's not a secret. The required surface area for the cooler is designed right in by the manufacturer for the transmission to work for the vehicle's application. This not a case of something "extra" being added. It's just how cars with automatic transmissions are built to begin with.

The published towing capacity for most vehicles that are available in both automatic and stick are exactly the same. Would you care to guess why that is? You could have figured it out for yourself if you would bother to actually do some extremely minimal internet research instead of continuing to shoot your mouth off on whatever this ill-informed little crusade of yours is.

Your initial claim is false. End of discussion. Just stop. You're making a fool of yourself.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, it is. Do you realize that manufacturers publish a maximum towing capacity as part of their specifications for every vehicle?

And have you compared EU spec manuals vs. American model versions? When it comes to specs there's another big difference which I didn't mention: Tongue weight. Which isn't towing capacity and EU spec trailers have drastically lower tongue weight for their rated carrying capacity: Because we actually pull loads with light vehicles. As already said, put four wheels on a trailer and the tongue weight is practically zero. Our trailers also come with brakes.

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What, so now you're trying to split hairs over the regulatory differences between the US and Europe to attempt to distract from the fact that you still haven't addressed making the following demonstrably false statements?

Your notion that automatic transmissions "need" active cooling that they "don't" have when in fact they do, and
Your claim that torque converters "can't" be locked during acceleration when they provably regularly are, and
Your claim that your engine "will stall" if the transmission can't "slip" even while the vehicle is already in motion. (Hint: Get your car rolling, don't touch the clutch, and take your foot off the accelerator pedal. Did it stall instantly? Did it stall when you got back on the accelerator, either? Of course it didn't, because inertia is a process that exists.)
Bonus points for blathering about "trying to slip the lock of the converter," which also makes no sense because that's not how torque converter lockups work nor attempt to work, nor has anyone proposed they work that way.

For the benefit of anyone else reading this, the difference in rated tow capacities between US spec and Euro spec vehicles is, as you have almost correctly observed, down to regulations and the trailer designs and not the tow vehicles themselves. There is no difference between the cars or their transmissions mechanically (nor the laws of physics -- anywhere on the planet, I guarantee it). European regulations have two critical differences between the US, to wit:

Vehicles towing trailers are typically limited to ~60 MPH or the equivalent, whereas in the US they are not (at least outside of some specific state laws).
Tongue weight requirements are significantly lower, because nobody owns a body-on-frame truck which is necessary to support a high tongue weight.

This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits. Thus our target tongue weight is roughly 15% of the total load, largely in order to keep the trailer under control at speed and prevent it from snaking all over the place and rolling itself and the vehicle. All other things being equal this ultimately winds up in the tongue weight being the limiting factor for most unibody vehicles. If your tongue weight is limited at e.g. 200 pounds, which it is for my bog standard Subaru Crosstrek, solving for the estimated tow capacity assuming 15% of it is 200 lbs would be roughly 1333 lbs. What's the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it's 1500 pounds. Imagine that. (For both the manual and automatic/CVT versions, by the way.)

FYI, we also have trailer brakes over here, and many states require them to be used on loads exceeding 3000 pounds. Below that, the trucks most people use have adequate mass and braking capacity to handle towing trailer loads in and of themselves. It turns out, the actual reason Americans tow with trucks is because Americans tow with trucks, and our towing regulations and trailers are designed around the expectation of towing with trucks. It's a just a cultural thing. No need to try to make it complicated nor make up fictitious bullshit about automatic transmissions.

But none of this has anything to do with your original assertions re: automatic vs. manual transmissions. I'm not arguing any other points with you.

As a matter of fact, I'm not arguing any more points with you at all. You have no idea how cars work. Go away.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Your notion that automatic transmissions “need” active cooling that they “don’t” have when in fact they do,

I'm saying that to pull heavy loads they need active cooling. And they do. They also have cooling when not designed for heavy pulling, but they don't need as much cooling because all the mechanics you literally agree with me over: More cooling is needed under heavier loads. This isn't some far-out concept it's physics, it's what happens when you put oil in essentially a blender, it gets hot.

Then, and this seems to get ignored by you: Americans aren't pulling heavy loads with cars. Why? Do you have an alternative explanation?

What’s the US spec rated tow capacity of a Crosstrek? Oh wow, it’s 1500 pounds.

1270 kg over here (with trailer brakes, 12% incline). That's nearly twice. Tongue weight: 80kg. That's less.

And that's a Japanese SUV. You can get VW Golfs with 1.8t towing capacity, that's a compact car. Also pure combustion ones, the Crosstrek is a hybrid it's easy to get low-end torque with one of those and transmission is a whole another topic.

This is because it is dangerous to tow a low tongue weight trailer at high speed. America has no such speed or tongue weight restriction, and we also have interstates with 85 MPH speed limits.

That's why trailer brakes exist and don't pretend 140km/h are fast... though with a trailer you're generally limited to 80 or 100 here, depending on make and whatnot. Maybe you should introduce speed limits, regulations for brakes on trailers, etc. Maybe you would if your small cars could even tow that much, physically. You should also start to use the left lane for overtaking only and get rid of those ludicrous amounts of stop signs and build your cities so that people can move in them, not just cars, but I'm digressing.

[+] John_McMurray@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

For a lorry, no. For a private vehicle, yes. Standard driving licenses only allow for up to 3.5t combined permissible weight (that is, vehicle and trailer plus maximum load), 750kg of those for trailer and load. If you want to drive a combination of vehicle and trailer individually up to 3.5t (so total 7t) you need a trailer license, anything above that you need a lorry license with all bells and whistles such as regular medical checkups.

Or, differently put: A standard VW Golf can pull almost thrice as much as most drivers are allowed to pull.

A small load for a private vehicle would be a small empty caravan, or a light trailer with some bikes. A Smart Fourtwo can pull 550kg which will definitely look silly but is otherwise perfectly reasonable, that's enough for both applications.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Camping. Boats. Moving furniture. Gay party floats. The list goes on.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What the heck do you need to tow for camping if you have a pickup truck? I can see boats, but boat people buy the towing capacity they need. Not the size of truck.

[–] BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Kei trucks have the same, if not slightly bigger/smaller, bed size as a modern F-150. But they're basically the size of Honda Fits.

I've wanted one since I worked for USPS and learned to drive on the right side of a vehicle. My state does allow you to register them and drive them on the road, but alas, I cannot afford one. :(

[–] Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

We desperately need smaller vehicles to counter the behemoth light trucks that are in the road today. Everything about these kei truck bans just scream corruption and incompetence from politicians to domestic auto manufacturers.

[–] venusaur@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Americans just love being the biggest on the road. Bigger is better in their minds. Maybe we put an extra tax on very large vehicles.

[–] best_username_ever@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

It's not only Americans though. French car makers also sell big SUVs to everyone because it's very important to have the biggest car ever when you bring back a small bag of groceries, or when you desperately need to be on top of the world in the traffic jams. I see those morons every day and it saddens me.

[–] venusaur@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

damn, i would have expected the french to have better taste in their vehicles

[–] best_username_ever@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Nope, it's over since the invention of SUVs and leasing cars. Nowadays everyone has a big car or an expensive car.

[–] venusaur@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Does Citroen make SUV’s now? They must be smoooooooth

[–] chocoladisco@feddit.de 0 points 2 months ago

They do, they are as ugly as all the other SUVs

[–] Waraugh@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 2 months ago

KIA*

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