Reminder that while the labour theory of value can be practical to understand certain aspects of society, it is still culturally biased and not "objectively" true.
What creates value can only be answered in a cultural framework.
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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You're conflating value and utility.
Where?
LTV is about the value contribution of labour to the production of commodities, ultimately reducible to the subsistence requirements of that labour. It's entirely from the supply side and can be thought of as embodied labour. I've had a very tiring day at work so won't go into more detail now, but LTV doesn't address perceived utility or demand side "contributions" to value as they are not materially grounded.
I wouldn't have been able to write it this consise, but that's kind of one thing I wanted to point towards in my original comment.
But labour's contribution to value and - crucially - the irreducible subsistence requirements of that labour provide the only materially grounded analysis. They are not culturally bound, that's the strength of LTV.
Doesn't that only take the economics of people into account that are close to this irreducible subsistence requirement?
It provides a materialist foundation for further analyses that would otherwise be absent. It's extremely useful for the precise reason that it is objectively true, while demand side economic models are ideologically based.
An LTV analysis begins with such workers because they are the original contributors of surplus value that is appropriated by the ownership class.
I recommend reading about it in more detail if you're interested, I'm not certain but I think it is addressed in Chapter 6 of Capital 1. I don't mean to be rude but I really did have a tiring day at work and you seem to be clutching at straws a little with some of your comments.
An LTV analysis begins with such workers because they are the original contributors of surplus value that is appropriated by the ownership class.
And what's that reasoning, if not based on ideology?
I really suggest watching unlearning egonomics video on the matter. I'm a leftist and mostly agree with Marx, but the LTV is a model and should be treated as such.
Because at its core, a commodity is comprised of natural material and the labor that transforms it into something with use value. It isn't an ideological statement to say a commodity is only a commodity by the labor that creates it, it's just a statement of fact.
Reducing value to nothing but commodities is already a very ideologically charged act. We were talking about value before. The value of commodities is only a subset of what counts as value.
I believe you have fundamentally misunderstood LTV. It's a observational model rooted in objective, material reality - hence historical materialism.
I generally educate myself by reading, rather than watching YouTube. I'd prefer not to continue this conversation.
I think you've misunderstood what a model is.
I generally educate myself by reading, rather than watching YouTube. I'd prefer not to continue this conversation.
Thank youfor the ableist, condescending comment. /s
A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say "labor theory of value isn't objectively true!!", they're shadowboxing a ghost.
Value != price
Umm... Thanks for that unnecessarily aggressive seeming and a bit incompehensible addendum, I guess?
I think it's more assertive than aggressive.
What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
Sorry, I interpreted it as aggressive. Figuring out tone in text form is hard and all that. Sorry that I wrongly accused you.
Things I didn't get:
A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept.
Marx hasn't been explicity brought up yet (at least not in my comment). Only implicitly in the original post. Again: thought you were attacking me and was like "umm... So what?"
When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.
I thought you meant me, since that was what I was basically saying. 😅
Value != price
Now, that one wasn't even implicitly mentioned.
I hope you don't hold my misunderstanding against me.
I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That's why I was using passive language.
Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet
True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to "your stolen labour value", which would be a marxist concept, and "labor theory of value" is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx's central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.
"Value != price"
Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.
Well now i'm confused. If 'labor theory of value isn't objectively true' isn't making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you're trying to say by it.
Well now i'm confused. If 'labor theory of value isn't objectively true' isn't making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you're trying to say by it.
A theory o value doesn't necessarily say anything about price. As you said: "value != price".
Then what do you mean by "the labor theory of value is not objectively true"?
It's an economic theory and therefore more to be understood as a model on how economics work.
The natural sciences have a hard core. The theory of gravity depends on how matter interacts in an objective, physical framework. Economic theories basically describe human interaction which are based on psychology and sociology. Therefore they depend on the societal context they are made in.
If you understand them as models that are tools on how to understand the world, they become more useful in political analysis (I know we are in a meme community here, but everything is politics and so on and so on...).
I do subscribe to many conclusions the labour theory of value and especially Marx came to. But I want y'all to remember that the theory is a mere tool for understanding and not a sacred, holy theory.
..... Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a 'soft science'. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?
What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the 'your stolen labor value' claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the 'labor theory of value', and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you've neglected to mention).
My hunch is that you don't feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward 'labor' and 'value' definitions as a way of avoiding it.
Why the neutral language all of a sudden?
I was trying to be understood a bit better.
Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?
Not explicitally, but yeah: models aren't used for "objective truth". They're used to model (i.e. simplify) reality to make observations and guesses for the future.
Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP?
I feel like a lot of leftists think that understanding economics starts and ends with "capitalists exploit the labouring class", while not actually engaging with the subject matter. I guess most can't even explain LTV properly before getting mad at capitalists.
As I've written before: I agree with most conclusions of marxist analysis that I know and I probably don't even know half of them. But I think that political analysis should use LTV as a tool to understand the world and not the end of socio-economical disgussion (because that would ignore important parts of today's economy).
It really just seems like you disagree with the 'your stolen labor value' claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the 'labor theory of value'
I don't. I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.
(as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you've neglected to mention)
I don't disagree. I also don't disagree with the atomic model of Niels Bohr when it comes to calculating electron potential. When it comes to observing e.g. electron spin, that particular model will probably fall flat. That doesn't mean I "disagree" with the model, though.
My hunch is that you don't feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward 'labor' and 'value' definitions as a way of avoiding it.
I'm not too confident in my economic knowledge, true. But I am quite confident in how models should be used in soft sciences.
Addendum: I'd like to kindly ask you to give me a little bit of benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, I'll just disengage due to that accusatory tone I'm getting from you being a bit exhausting.
My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.
I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.
On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don't consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.
I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention
How have I earned that mistrust? Do you think it's fair to continue that mistrust after my efforts to elaborate my point?
I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.
Pardon my tone, but: That's a nonpology. I can do without those.
On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate.
I agree. My original "reminder" was to point out that deviations occur. The mental shortcut that I meant was to only take LTV into account when discussing economics.
I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
I don't know if "misused" is the right term, but one example where LTV falls flat is that it doesn't model the destruction of value due to environmental pollution.
I'm not following what you specifically mean.
Could you provide an example of when the theory fails due to a culture's differing views of value?
There's not even academical consensus what value actually is, AFAIK. Do preasts add value to anything with their labour? If not: Do social counsellors? What if a priest acts as a counsellor? Ask different economists with their theories of value and you'll get several answers.
Economic theories aren't as rigid as theories from the natural sciences or mathematics. They are dependent on the culture in which they are perceived. A non-capitalist society would have different theories or value (or none at all) than we do.
This guy can explain it properly, I'm not an economist and kinda regret making that comment.
I actually watch Unlearning Economics, though only his video essays and not his streams. It's been a while since I've seen this one.
So what we're meaning is how much of Western culture undervalues care-giving since it produces no product, so stay at home moms, nannies, therapists, etc.
I thought of another example. In more nomadic and naturalist cultures, actually doing things to the environment destroys value, while leaving it be and allowing it to recover creates value. That is something else that is not accounted for in any theory of value to my knowledge.
An example would be American Indians in their dependance on foraging and hunting. I think that gives creedance to the idea that they thanked the things they harvested/hunted (I don't know the factuality of that), since from their perspective they were only a burden that the ecosystem was 'kind' enough to support.
Thank you for that comment. I feel like finally someone understood what I was trying to get across.
Probably formulated it badly, but still: the answers are a bit exhausting.
EDIT: Thought of another example of your qase where harming nature decreases value. Having to buy carbon certificates for releasing CO2 models the destruction of value by polluting the environment.
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