Adopting is great. Not everyone should do it.
Autism is difficult. Their lives are not ruined.
I can see some of the arguments of antinatalists but the online culture of it seems to have a nihilism/blackpill problem.
this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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It's autism, not a death sentence.
To me, it seems like online discussions for any stance, has to turn to it's most extreme. It's like their way or highway type of deal. Whatever happened to nuanced discussion, I wonder.
I'm not speaking for autistic people here, but I am speaking as parent to two children (now adults) on the spectrum.
Autistic children do not ruin your life and do not have ruined lives themselves. As with all parenting, sometimes things are very, very difficult and sometimes things are very, very easy. This isn't unique to raising a neurodiverse child, this is just parenting. The unique challenges that parenting a neurodiverse child brings are 99% of the time caused by how society thinks these children/adults are and assumptions about whats best for them without actually asking them rather than any sort of intrinsic issue caused by their autism or ADHD or any other neurological difference. For the remaining 1% of the time, you just do your best.
The narrative that neurological difference, in particular autism, ruins lives has, in its modern form, been with us since Andrew Wakefield first perpetuated his fraudulent claims of vaccine damage causing autism. It was spread by antivaxx/autism activist parent groups like Jenny McCarthy's Generation Rescue and the truly despicable people at Autism Speaks. These are the people who've ruined lives.
Why do they think autism is some sort of horror story where kids suffer in agony or something?
Autism Speaks played a huuuge part in making that the dominant narrative about autism for the past 20 years or so.
In the 00s (maybe early 10s?) one of the videos they made for parents of newly diagnosed children had a parent talking about how she was considering driving off a bridge to kill herself and her autistic child, but didn't because her non-autistic child was also in the car. This was presented as totally normal and just a way to prepare for how an autistic child will ruin your life.
Autism Speaks is disgusting. What an awful organization. I wish more people knew that.
It's a mix of the ABA industry, early researchers and socio-environmental issues.
Early researchers cultivate the myth of the normative human. Autists were an altered version of human that has to be corrected. If a human wasn't corrected to match the norm, it could not be happy in life and will suffer it's entire life.
So autists have to be corrected (we know it's false) to be happy whatever the means. It ended with electric shock and others stuffs seen during WW2. This is how ABA was created. It relies on the fears of autists not being happy until they are corrected.
ABA, PBT and all the others acronyms has built an industry worth a lot of money. They finance more research on the field with huge standard, COI and consent issues among others. They need to keep the fear in the population to keep the business up.
The third is the new way to see autism. The struggles of autists are mostly socio-environmental. It means that issues aren't the person and autism. It's a lack of acceptance of the diversity by the neurological majority. It implies discrimination, patronizing, and violence against autists.
Antinatalism is a more deranged branch of eugenics. It's not simply "promoting eugenics" it's a belief that giving birth is the greatest evil one can inflict upon a child and the world at large.
That they'd clearly see us as subhuman isn't surprising given that they at best want our entire species to voluntarily go extinct. Their entire worldview is best summed up as gentle genocide is good.
Antinatalism is the prelude to ecofascism.
This post makes me so mad. Holy shit. It's Autism, they're lives aren't ruined. I have autism and I'm very glad to be alive. The person that has made this comment spends way too much time on the internet and not enough interacting with people offline.
Antinatalism is a thing that could only thrive on the internet in a community full of people that get fed nothing but bad news all day. Go outside. The world isn't as bad as you think
Go outside. The world isn't as bad as you think
It's pretty bad
I think antinatalism is a really interesting philosophy. But it falls apart as soon as you discriminate - It is fair to question the ethics of reproduction, but as soon as you discriminate you end up in eugenics territory. This subreddit is really hostile sadly. there is a lot of ableism under the disguise of antinatalism
What a mean thing... but I agree, I never wanted this...
There's no other way to put it, having kids is extremely selfish.
It's pretty much the epitome of selfishness.
I want to clarify though, this isn't to say that calling only people who to have kids who happen to have disabilities "selfish." Every single parent is extremely selfish (excluding some outliers, obviously, don't "um actually" me).
You are selfish. You use resources that earth doesnt have.
Antinatalism can conserve resources by providing the resources to those who already exist rather then creating a new life.
How? The Resources you use to survive are made thanks to previous generations of kids.
You said in a previous comment
You are selfish. You use resources that earth doesnt have.
but now you are making a good point about how people can also make resources. Thats very contradictory.
I said a lot of dumb and mean things in this thread. Yes, it contradicts itself. I'm sure at the time of writing this i've already forgotten what i was arguing for and just wanted to be right.
I based my "knowledge" on antinatalism on the 2 i've talked to and they were of the "killing yourself is the only way to be moral" kind.
After all what the others in this thread have told me is right, i've just been a cunt and angry for some reason. Please discount all i've written in here as "dumb person having an ego problem".
I said parents are selfish for having kids. You can try to downplay it all you want, but you don't have a kid for this future magical mystical kid. You have a kid for your own wants and needs over everything else. Just because having kids is an accepted action in society doesn't make it not selfish. And since you think of "selfishness" as a bad thing, this makes your brain scramble and your cognitive dissonance go into overdrive causing you to come up with completely inept retorts like I'm "selfish" for simply existing and using resources that the Earth clearly has as I'm using them.
The resources are there for you to claim idiotic and insane things because someones children made them.
The only reason you exist is because someone decided that the future of humanity only exists if we make children. You alone cannot decide that a common goal of many is a selfish decision of a single being.
So if you were truly commited to your cause and you wanted your bloodline to die with you, then you could also [i do not condone selfharm, this is purely for argumentation].
So if you were truly commited to your cause and you wanted your bloodline to die with you, then you could also [i do not condone selfharm, this is purely for argumentation].
I don't have a cause. You're putting words into my mouth because you don't know how to argue in good faith.
You're literally telling me to kill myself because you're personally offended someone dare challenge your preconceived notions of the world. You're a truly fucked up individual. I pray you don't have or ever have any dependents. You're a danger to society.
Antinatalists constantly tell people to kill their offspring. I argue on the same level as antinatalists.
If the cause is to end the suffering that humankind causes then there is only one solution.
If my notions of the world are wrong, and humankind really is only a burden, then youre indirectly also calling for genocide.
You think that isn't fucked up?
Antinatalists constantly tell people to kill their offspring.
Some do, sure, but that's what what antinatalism is. This is like saying "vegans constantly tell meat eaters to kill themselves." Yes, some do, but the point of veganism isn't the death of meat eaters.
I argue on the same level as antinatalists.
No, you argue on your deranged level by justifying it with your antinatalist boogey man. You're like those YouTube conservatives who put up a picture of a blue haired teenager on screen and saying "this is who the liberals are."
If the cause is to end the suffering that humankind causes then there is only one solution.
This is like saying the way to end violence done in the name of religion is to kill off all religious people. There's more that goes into getting to an end solution than just immediately jumping to it. And it also seems like you think antinatalists entire existence is about making antinatalism, like there's nothing else besides this.
If my notions of the world are wrong, and humankind really is only a burden, then youre indirectly also calling for genocide.
You seem to not know what the word "natalism" means. It's about bring people into the world. It has nothing to do with people who are already living.
And killing off all living people isn't a genocide. It's "speciocide." Completely different things. Comparing antinatalists with people who commit genocides is unbelievably unhinged, but I should have seen it coming from someone like you.
You think that isn’t fucked up?
The only thing I think is fucked up in this discussion is people who only believe in antinatalism-lite for eugenic reasons and, of course, you.
I concede. My understanding of antinatalism was wrong. i apologize for being a fuckwit.
"Now you have ruined three lives forever"
bruh
It's true though. Living with autism is like choosing the Nightmare difficulty option in life.
Source: me
Look here, Mario. You are speaking for exactly one (1) person. Your personal experience of autism is not universal. Some of us just have better circumstances. Some of us are spiteful bitches who live for the difficulty. My point being, some of us actually like being alive, and are okay with being autists.
The ratio of votes says otherwise.
Good for you for having an enjoyable life. I hope you continue to do so.
Ironically they do
Antinatalist here - the rhetoric in that post is horrible, and is not representative of antinatalism as a whole.
Antinatalism isn’t the belief that a certain group shouldn’t reproduce - it’s that nobody should. The world is fucked, and nonconsensually bringing anyone into it is morally reprehensible. It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
For the people that have been born, however, everyone deserves respect and equity. Ableism, or any other kind of discrimination, is just wrong, and makes you a shitty person. Just like the person who made that post.
This is an incredibly dumb idea. It will also die out for incredibly obvious reasons because everyone else will keep reproducing while antinatalists descend into irrelevancy.
Genesis 1:28 and al-Baqarah 2:187 instruct reproduction. Antinatalists are destined for the fire.
It’s not eugenics, it’s voluntary extinctionism.
"Don't worry guys, that person doesn't represent us - what they should have said is that they wish for all of humanity to die out."
This is an absolutely insane thing to advocate for. I hope you come to realize that in time.
I’m not saying we should kill people, I’m saying making more is wrong.
It is a nonconsensual act whereupon you are forcing life and all its travesty onto another being, when they were perfectly fine not existing.
Call me insane if you want, I couldn’t care less. Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole, and bringing someone else into the world to be both a victim and perpetrator of the issue is wrong.
I think your perspective about life is blinded by pessimism, and you're treating that pessimism as absolute fact. Many people view life as a wonderful thing, are thrilled to exist for the time that they do, and see creating a new life to experience the wonders of living as a gift.
Humans are a plague upon both other humans and this planet as a whole
You're sounding like Agent Smith from the matrix. Come on. Unplug from the negative feedback loop for a bit.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
There are good things to experience, yes. If you’re already alive, then by all means, seek to find happiness and enjoyment. Don’t force someone else into that endless struggle. You can make no guarantees that their life won’t be one of pure suffering, and that’s not a risk I’m willing to take.
And again, we are destroying this planet - not just for us, but for all life on it. We are the problem.
You call it pessimism, I call it realism.
Says every person with depression ever.
I agree with the other commenter recommending therapy. When you don't see it as "life is pain and the future is hopeless", you might sound less like a scifi villain calling for human extinction.
“Existence is suffering” is a foundational tenet for many worldviews and religions, not just antinatalism. Existence is literally the first cause to all suffering - no existence, no suffering.
Acknowledging that doesn’t make me depressed or pessimistic, it’s just acceptance how things are.
You’re free to live in whatever fantasy you want, though. That’s your right.
Also, responding to differing worldviews with “get help” is generally bad form
Your worldview is literally calling for the extinction of all humans. You need to come back to reality and stop convincing yourself that this is normal or healthy.
Abortion and euthanasia are going to lead to autistic people being murdered. Neo progressives already believe that disabled children should be aborted and atheists admit that "life begins some time after birth" meaning they openly support euthanasia up to age five in some cases. A lot of neo progressives think the most humane option for disabled children is abortion or euthanasia at a young age.
Yikes, that sounds bad. Can you provide a source?