this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
39 points (93.3% liked)

Europe

1269 readers
401 users here now

News and information from Europe 🇪🇺

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in !yurop@lemm.ee. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)

(This list may get expanded when necessary.)

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the mods: @federalreverse@feddit.org, @poVoq@slrpnk.net, or @anzo@programming.dev.

founded 2 months ago
MODERATORS
top 10 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] dactylotheca@suppo.fi 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Whether there is the political will to achieve the required unanimity to effect expulsion remains unclear.

Does it remain unclear? Especially considering that the far right won a fairly large chunk of the Parliament seats in the latest election, it seems to me there has been comparatively very little interest in doing anything about Hungary or safeguarding Europe against autocracy

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The fundamental problem with expulsion is that it changes the persecution narrative from being complete bullshit, to being arguable.

Hungarians need to sort Orban out, the exact same as the French with their fascists, and Germany, and Italy, and...need I go on?

There is no good play here, but it requires all Europeans to remember that we beat them before, and we sure as fuck will beat them again as long as people get involved.

[–] Gsus4@programming.dev 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

They need some form of reciprocity: if you restrict these and these laws, we will restrict this and this influence in the block until you go back. e.g. you end independent media? We block you from owning any media in EU. You open the doors to visa-free russian citizens, lose access to Schengen. You take giant loans from China? Lose access to cohesion funds. You jerrymander your elections to the extreme? No votes in EU parliament/council for you...but proportional and reversible to provide an incentive to go back to normal at least a bit...obviously IANAL

PS: I mean, look at Ukraine: "you block our military aid? We block your gas."

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Oh absolutely. I'm not saying that they should be allowed to do whatever and face no repercussions, just that the more severe they are, the more they can be weaponised by populists.

[–] dactylotheca@suppo.fi 3 points 1 month ago

The thing is though that no matter what the EU does populists will weaponise it, and very often it doesn't even have to have anything but the most tenuous of connections to reality. All the small "sanctions" against Hungary (mainly temporarily withholding funds) have already been painted by Orbán as unjustified attacks.

The persecution narrative is there, and while yes expulsion might play into it, just about literally everything else the EU could do to Hungary would also play into it – and even if we did let Orbán do what he wants, he'd still spin the same story about the evil EU keeping Hungary down because right wing extremists always need an external enemy.

Personally I think that freezing Hungary's EU funding and political participation in the Parliament, Council and similar institutions might be for the best. Not an expulsion, but basically telling them that until they get their shit together they won't get to benefit from Union money or influence its direction

[–] Gsus4@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There was an article I can't find from a year or so ago where a few libertarians were arguing that Bexit instead of giving them more freedom, took away from it, because they realized that the EU tended to limited the power of national governments to go on populist rampages on the left or the right, because the EU institutions average and balance between interests. I think they are right and if the EU were to turns...uh...fascist...by then the well would already be poisoned in most countries anyway.

[–] 0x815 4 points 1 month ago

Why doesn't Orbán form a union with Putin? – Polish Foreign Ministry hits back at Orbán's speech in Baile Tusnad ---- (Archived link)

Polish Deputy Foreign Minister Władysław Teofil Bartoszewski reacted to the Hungarian Prime Minister's speech delivered on Saturday in Baile Tusnad:

Why doesn't Orbán form a union with Putin and some other similar authoritarian states? If you don't want to be part of a club, you can always leave it."

[...]

[Bartoszewski] added that the Hungarian government is currently clearly pursuing an anti-EU, anti-Ukrainian and anti-Polish policy. The Polish politician recalled that Viktor Orbán is currently blocking the two billion zlotys (nearly 468,000 euros) that Poland is supposed to receive from the EU as a reimbursement for Polish military supplies delivered to Ukraine.

[...]

Romanian Prime Minister Marcel Ciolacu had also commented on Viktor Orbán's Saturday speech earlier, wryly asking: "Did he say anything about Romania? Do they want me to forbid him to come to Romania?"

[–] daddy32@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Well, the intro was nice:

Fidesz has rigged Hungary’s elections, packed its courts, and violated its citizens’ human rights.

So, we have a culprint. But how will expelling the whole country help it's citizens?

It's like throwing bathwater out along with the baby.