If I had the money, I'd be running for Europe right now. America has gone to shit and it is only going to get worse from here
this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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as an European I have to say:
please stop advertising this, they will all come here with their American dreams and turn Europe in USA.
I'm yet to see two of them actually connecting the dots between the "American dream" and the horrible labor laws. They want the wellbeing we have but they also want the rampant capitalism, they think "socialism == communism"
Clumping 332 million people together and expecting that they're all the exact same.
Come on, buddy.
And only the poor and/or uneducated will stay behind. The USA is going down fast.
The educated are paid way more in the US. Americans buy houses and stuff. Unimaginable for most Europeans who don't get to inherit one. Also Europe is on the decline. Due to terrible demographics mostly.
Americans buy houses and stuff. Unimaginable for most Europeans who don’t get to inherit one.
I've got bad news for you. The median income-housing ratio is going down on both sides of the pond.
Agree with the rest though.
Buying a house in a soulless suburb and living on the driver's seat of a car staring at nothing but other cars and concrete? No, thanks. I believe in the inherent superiority of urbanity.
Also a house that is made of paper
I don't think that's really true. The US is still the largest economy and attracts many educated and highly skilled people in the tech sector.
Certain parts are declining for sure, but I don't think that applies to the whole country.
Honestly, I moved to Germany two years ago, and I would only go back if my family needed my help in the US. Life feels a lot easier, and more comfortable. Yeah, the winter sucks, but even then I'm outside more than when I lived in the US.
There is no bad weather, just bad clothes.
how are you cold? just put on another layer B)
What's wrong with winter?
IDK, does the salary deficit makes up for it?
Coders in the US can make six figures easy. In Spain it's like 20-40k, 60kish un Luxembourg if you're a specialist and got a masters degree, etc. I've looked at the tech jobs in Europe in general and I'm unimpressed.
Wages in general are much better in the US. But then expenses also tend to be higher, not only health, even the tipping gets crazy expensive. But in the end it's very personal, what makes you happy? Is it money? Being close to family? Being in your own country? For most people the move would be too troublesome to be worth it, I guess.
The way I do it is I put a price tag to any benefits I get. I'm currently in Europe but working remotely for Americans. But let's say I were in the US. Let's say I'm making six figures. Rent in Madrid or Paris is 1-2.6k for a flat. Rent in the US is maybe 3-4k for a flat. But in Madrid coding jobs are 1.5k-2.5k a month. In the US you get 7-12k a month with the same job. In Madrid you're left with 500-1500 to live with and in California you're left with 3-7k a month to live with. Let's say your expenses are double, or even triple, in California than in Madrid. Let's say you live in luxury, you spend 1k on food, 500 on clothes and 500 on transport and other expenses in California. You're still left with 1-5k a month for savings. In Madrid you're left with 0-900.
Even making a top salary and living frugally in Madrid won't net you as much in savings as working in a us capital. And then when you want to retire your savings are worth the same anywhere in the world. You can go and retire in a Madrid town if you want. Your degree of comfort before may be the same, but you can save so much that I don't see how it's worth it to work for European companies if you're able to work for American companies, whether living in Europe or in the US.
If you work for European countries you're usually entitled for retirement money so you don't have to save a huge amount (although the more the better obviously). I'm a programmer and I've stayed in many countries and travelled even more as some kind of a digital nomad. I'm about to move to spain because it's just an awesome county with very nice people. Even though US companies are the top paying one, I'd never work for one as long as I can't do it 100% remotely from Europe. I like travelling to the US a lot but I'm also very happy when I'm back in Europe.
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Depends entirely on your values and perspective
If you're coming from the upper echelons of US income then it might not.
Otherwise you'll potentially find the increase in quality of life to be significant.
Americans work too much, commute to much and don't take enough holidays. Europeans work significantly less hours day to day, have significantly shorter commutes on average and have legally required and protected minimum annual leave that vastly outstrips US workers.
E.g. Take myself and a US friend in a very similar job into account. Yes he earns roughly double what I do.
- However I average 10-15 hours less work a week than he does.
- My commute is half what his is and I have actual public transport options that aren't trash if my car broke down.
- I get 38 days of paid leave a year. 8 national holidays and the time between Christmas and Jan 1st by default.. That leaves me with 27 days to use with some degree of freedom. He's lucky if he takes ten days total per year.
- I get private healthcare but also know that if that was removed from my benefits I'd have access to state healthcare without the risk of bankruptcy.
Those listed things are just employment based. Culture is also a factor. I've never once worried about being shot in my entire life. Our food quality standards are higher whilst also costing significantly less. We don't have the institutionalised national self delusion of tipping culture. Our religious and crazy right wing aren't politically powerful enough to be dragging us kicking and screaming inti the 18th century like the US is. We aren't completely and utterly dependent on cars, so being car free is a viable way to live.
My final note is this. I'm not some US hating zealot. I literally booked flights for a two week holiday in the US yesterday. I adore the NBA and find American people to be absolutely lovely on average. But I couldn't live the way most Americans do.
What always seemed strange to me: Every single US-American I've ever personally met (in Europe or the US) has always been nothing but polite, helpful and friendly. But 300 million of them (mayby together with historcal ballast) create this political system that seems to be rather counterproductive for raising the average standard of living (emphasis on average, if you are in the top 10%, USA seems to be a nice place to be).
I do concede, that the average standard of living is still impressive, but the continual improvement of the 50s and 60s seems to have stopped
If only Europe wanted us there! If moving there were easy, I'd have done it years ago. Unfortunately, I probably need to wait until I retire.
just a heads up, retiring to europe is only possible in very few places and a few more if you're loaded.
Muss gerade an diesen Bericht von kürzlich denken, ebenfalls vom glorreichen Business Insider:
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-germany-relocation-american-move-disappointing-2023-6
Lustiger Kontrast.
Was für ein dämlicher Artikel. Wäh, wäh, ich wohne in einem kleinen Dorf und habe nicht Zugang zu allen Modern conveniences wie in einer grossen Stadt. Wäääh... Echt, jetzt?
Mein Highlight war dass sie einen schlechten job hat bei dem sie in einer schwachen Währung Geld verdient aber Deutschland ist teuer.
Haha genau das habe ich beim lesen gedacht. "Warum hilft mir denn keiner? Ich vermisse Walmart!" lol
Generell lustiger Artikel, danke.
I vacationed in Germany recently. Something about it just felt right... But it would be hard to be so far from my family, and probably harder to make friends or find a church. :(
There’s plenty of churches. If you live in a city there are usually many churches to choose from.
Yeah it's very attractive but not the easiest to obtain citizenship.
That depends a lot of the country. In some EU countries is rather easy and cheap.
As a former EU citizen (UK, thanks Brexit) which countries do you think it is easy? I don't think it is, I believe there is Malta where you can literally buy a passport and Portugal that has some lax visa laws. But gaining citizenship isn't necessarily an easy thing to do.
You are correct with Portugal, I found this on some website:
Portugal is, overall, the easiest country to get citizenship of the EU.
That’s due to the following factors:
Short residency period of just five years before applying for citizenship
One of the world’s most powerful passports
Range of flexible visa options to suit remote workers, retirees and investors
Dual citizenship OK – keep your original passport
Easy language requirements – A2 elementary level
Access generous tax benefits while counting up the years to citizenship
Reasonable minimum stay requirements
What’s more, Portugal has one of Western Europe’s lowest costs of living
25 years I’ve been abroad (The Netherlands) and the work-life balance is why I stayed. They insist I take days off (still foolishly work like an American) and have already booked out a 3 week vacation for later in the year…and I’ll still have nearly 2 weeks of vacation left. We can roll a few weeks of vacation over to the next year if not used. Even though the Dutch have NO holidays from June to Christmas, I’m still able to take 4 day weekends when I want to.
The downside is family left behind may begin to resent you. My family have developed this red-hat victim culture. I can’t bring up how I live abroad or else it starts fights - they don’t want to talk to me now.
Same with the resentment! Lots of people in the US don't want to hear how much better it is elsewhere. GrEaTesT NaTiOn oN eArTh!
It's funny, because if you're living in the US and bringing up topics (like e.g. healthcare, parental leave, vacation time, sick days, the school system, universal access to universities and higher education, traffic deaths, gun violence, etc. etc. etc.) the reaction is often "well, if you hate it so much, why don't you just leave?"
And then, when you actually leave and live a much more enjoyable and happy life elsewhere, the reaction is "we don't want to hear about it!!!"
They didn't want to hear about it in the first place ;)
Jealous! I'd love to be able to move out of the US, but seems you need certain jobs in order to go. Don't think I qualify, so will continue to be a slave to the system here.
Dunno how old you are, but you can take a loan to study in Europe, get a job, and decide whether you want to pay back the loan or not. If you plan on never returning to the US, then AFAIK, you don't have to pay back shit and there's nothing they can do. Although, maybe that changed when the USA started demanding taxes from Americans abroad and forcing banks to close their accounts abroad too... who knows.
Anyway, it'll probably be cheaper for you to move to Europe.
I'm 33 and have a 1 year old son, I feel like the ship has sailed for me.
Pretty much what u/woobwub said, I just want to add that here in Germany, all kinds of craftspeople (like carpenters, plumbers, electricians, construction workers, tile setters, you name it) are in desperate demand, with demographic change probably being the biggest reason. Companies offering these services are overbooked and can demand ludicrous prices, while simultaneously lamenting about not being able to get young, motivated apprentices.
To be fair, a lot of said companies still pay their apprentices peanuts while treating them like shit and blaming their staff shortage on the lazy young generation not wanting to work. But if you're a qualified worker in any of these professions, most companies would gladly hire someone like you. If, and here's the big catch, if you can speak German somewhat fluently. And our language is a confusing clusterfuck to learn, or so I've heard.
Anyhow, best of wishes to you and your son (and family), whether you manage to emigrate to a less latestage-capitalism-infested country or try and build up a good life in the US.
You might not know how much you can do. If refugees can travel from Afghanistan all the way to France with their entire family, you can do it from the US. Dunno what you're doing, but crafts and trades jobs are also understaffed across Europe. Germany is even trying to be attractive to nurses all the way from India!
Don't underestimate yourself.
Ah yes, let's commit international credit fraud, I'm sure it'll be fine...
I know somebody who actually did it and returns frequently to visit. And is it international if the bank is in the US? 🤔
I also moved to the Netherlands recently (but from Germany) and their holiday schedule feels really weird to me. You get a lot from April to June and then nothing until Christmas. They should've spaced that out better.
Germany isn't that much better, in most states you get two public holidays between June and December, 3rd October and either reformation day or all-saints' day, and those can all be on the weekend so in a bad year you get zero additional days off.
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If only they would leave their political affiliations and a few bad bits of their culture in the US too, that'd be great. They're otherwise very welcome here, as is anybody else who wants to embrace the European lifestyle and integrate, Iranian, Afghan, Australian, Kenyan, Brazilian, Turkish, whatever.
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