That would homestly be nice. It's not about Eurovision, but about sending a message. If Russia gets banned from many activities for invading a sovereign country, Israel should get the same treatment for doing what is (at best) the same.
this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2024
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Do you think that Russia would have been banned if Ukraine started the invasion by massacring hundreds of innocent civilians at a rave party in Russia, and took random tourists back home to Ukraine to rape them, and then spread videos of it all?
Now, Israel is all but innocent. But it is not 1:1 comparable
Indeed itβs not a 1 to 1 comparison. One country is ordered by the ICJ to stop committing a potential genocide, and the other isnβt.
Edit: added the word βpotentialβ to more accurately represent the ICJ ruling.
It has been ordered to PREVENT a hypothetical genocie, not to stop "committing a genocide".
Israel has done enough bad shit that you don't need to lie to prove your point
Who is committing the hypothetical genocide?
Russia started a war of aggression so it makes sense they are banned from Eurovision till that has been resolved.
Israel is committing war crimes on a scale that is rare in modern history, so also a good reason to be banned.
And bringing up the oktober 7 attacks kinda sounds hollow after the response from Israel. Hammas killed 1.139 and Israel killed well over 25.000.
Hamas committed a direct attack on civilians, without any military target in mind what-so-ever. Obviously this will be a serious crime against humanity in most people's eyes that makes it harder to count Israel's response as unwarranted, counting in their wrongdoings.
With the Rus-Ukr conflict, the same country is both the aggressor and the attacker that started the invasion. That makes it easier to see who the undoubtedly "bad guy" is.
Hamas committed a direct attack on civilians, without any military target in mind what-so-ever.
About 1/4th of the Israelis deaths on October 7th were members of the military. The IDF by it's own reports has killed two civilians for every Hamas member, so 1/3rd of the deaths are military. They have killed at least 10k civilians in one month, so just a bit more than Russia did in the whole war but 10 times as much as Hamas managed! With those numbers let's keep in mind that Hamas are terrorists while the IDF is an organised army of a democratic state which claims to uphold human rights even in war times.
So yeah, neither side gets a medal from me for holding back against civilians.
- Hamas is not taking part in Eurovision.
- A war crime is a war crime and a genocide is a genocide, no matter the justification.
- Calling Hammas the aggressor ignores quite a bit of complicated history.
Hamas is the aggressor in this specific part of the almost 100 year old conflict, that resulted in the current circumstances.
What genocide are you referring to?
By that logic the specific part of the current genocide in Gaza Israel is the unambiguous aggressor.
Like: You cannot just ignore what came before. WTF?
None in particular, Iβm saying there is no excuse for genocide. So to determine if Israel is committing one, the actions of Hamas are irrelevant.
Might as well ban Germany alongside too. Our government claimed that the case brought forth by South Africa was "without any basis" the moment the hearing at the ICJ ended. Now that the ICJ has demanded preliminary measures and explicitly stated that the Palestinians are at a plausible risk of genocide, the government tried to spin-doctor it, that "without any basis" would be a normal way of communicating different opinions on a legal case. Oh and on the day of the hearing the German genocide against the Herero and Nama people in todays Namibia had it's 120 years anniversary. The German government did not deem it necessary to adress the fact in any formal way to Namibia or anyone else.
Except for 2018 the last decade was a total embarassement anyways and the spot should be taken by a country whose artists actually make it by ability instead of the spot being paid for.
Germany is one of the biggest humanitarian donators and took many refugees from the region. The foreign ministry refused to call it a Holocaust - which is just on another level. The commitee of the Herero and Nama also critisized the critique on germany as populistic and without legal basis and double standard. The defense of Israel is a state doctrine, also based on history, so it might be a little more complicated than a simple good and bad.
Oh, right, charity.
I grew up with the stories about how in Fascist Portugal the "ladies" of the handful of priviledged families who exploited a crushingly poor country were big charitable givers.
Act with cold calous cruelty but all it takes is to give away some crumbs and socially you're lauded as a moral paragon.
Funny that you compare Germany to fascist dictators now, its one of the few countries which actually worked its past and acknowledged it. Support for a Israel is a double sided sword in that regard, just dropping them is definitely not an option. Germany currently houses 3.3 million refugees and paid over 24 billion in foreign aid. Honestly, what do you expect?
It's pretty obvious from its continued and unwavering support for a nation led by Fascists who openly describe as "human animals" the neigbouring people from a different etnicity which they have oppressed for over half a century and are now outright massacring, commiting all manner of war crimes in doing so, that the "never again" that the German elites claimed to have learned is not at all the Humanist "nothing like this should ever be allowed to happen again to any people because of their etnicity" (which would see Germany react towards Israel as they did towards Russia when it invaded Ukraine) but rather the very specific and Racist "We should not have done that to Jews".
I too used to believe as you do, but what we are seeing right now in their actions, especially the massive contrast in their reaction to the victimizing of the Ukranians by Russia and the already much larger victimizing of Palestinians by Israel, is that whatever the German leadership has "learned" was not the Humanitarian Principle but something else altogether and the most obvious explanation for their very overt support of the Genociders in this specific situation is that it depends on the etnicity of the victims and the perpetrators whether such a massacre is acceptable or not in the eyes of said German leadership, which is pure, unadulterated, racism.
At this point Germany is activelly siding with Fascists doing the same style of action as the Nazis (though not yet the scope, but the continuing blocade of Food, Water & Energy to Gaza might very well lead to that). That is not the actions of a land whose leadership has genuinelly learned the lesson that massacring people because of their etnicity is Evil.
When it really mattered Germany showed that not only it's doesn't at all care for the plight of the victims but even activelly supports the genociders if the etnicity of the victims is not a favored one whilst that of the genociders is. One can then only conclude that all that "charity" was not done for humanist reasons (no humanist would support Israel after all they've done in the last month) and must have been the other reason for overtly doing "charity" - the cold and calculated managing of the image one projects.
Hmm, I think I get your point. Have to rethink that, ty
Germany is also a major supplier of weapons and military tech to Israel. This includes donating submarines, where the specs are secret, but it is likely submarines capeable of launching nuclear missiles.
Most of the humanitarian infrastructure got destroyed by Israel multiple times and Germany also announced to stop UNRWA funding over the allegations against 10 former UNRWA employees. Nobody demanded them to speak of "Holocaust" in relationship to Gaza, but acknowledging that it is possible that Israel ist intending to commit genocide, is commiting genocide and most definetely has been commiting a great deal of war crimes, is repeatedly rejected by the German government.
The "state doctrine" shows exactly where the problem lies. Germany is using Israel as "proof" of having learned from its past and is happy to commit and help commiting atrocities in the name of Israel. Jews that are critical of Israel are excluded from public discourse, are excluded from arts and culture, have their rights to demonstrations taken away, are accused of antisemitism and in one case also jailed for demonstrating against Israels war on Gaza. So the German government is even commiting many acts of antisemitism while claiming to defend people from antisemitism. Also antisemitism that is rampant in Germanys mainstream society is defendend and pushed under the rug, while trying to paint antisemitism as an issue "imported" through migration from muslim countries.
Here is an articel that goes in depth about it, and provides numerous examples. For instance the former head of the interior intelligence, that is supposed to fight political extremism has been initially defended by the federal anti-antisemitism officer. Meanwhile he was and still is spurting antisemitic conspiracies on twitter.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
It is so typical of German governments to pretend that Germany is the worst in the world and to make up for it ends up helping facists. That was basically what happened with Russia with NordStream. It is also very much what seems to happen with Israel today. Obviously the creation of Israel was in a large part Germanys fault due to the Holocaust and Germany has a moral obligation to make up for it. However that should mean no more genocides and not do everything for Israel, including supporting a government, which openly calls for genocide in parts.
We should have made up for it by giving a part of Germany to European Jews who wanted a state of their own. The Allies should have made us doing so.
Sadly the German elites seem to have learned the "Never again" lesson in a racist way (Jews are like "us", not like "them") rather that humanitarian (nothing like this should ever again be done to anybody anywhere because of their etnicity), hence this continued reaction of unwavering support of Israel against the Palestinians (as in the view of the racist German power elites it's "those like us" vs "them") and the contrasting reaction to Russia's invasion of Ukraine were the victims were "those like us".
In a humanitarian view both situations are unnacceptable and the one in Gaza is worse because of the intensity, numbers and sheer arbitratrity of civilian killings, but in a racist's eyes the etnicity of the perpetrators and the victims is what shapes the acceptability it not of murder, hence what's going on in Ukraine is unnacceptable for the German government whilst what's going on in Gaza is acceptable.
To my great dissapointment, it seems that whilst Nazism was forced to leave Germany, the rabid racist thinking of it has never left the hearts of the German elites.
It is a bit worse than that. Antisemitism is still strong in German mainstream society. The blind support for Israel is used as "proof" that that isnt the case and now antisemitism is framed as something "imported" through immigration. German anti-antisemitism officers repeatedly criticised jewish people who voiced criticism about Israel or called out antisemitism in German politics. They claimed these jewish people to be "inconsiderate" to the German way of dealing with its history.
Here is an in depth article about the whole ordeal if you are interested:
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-strange-logic-of-germanys-antisemitism-bureaucrats
Progressive and critical jewish voices are ignored, shunned and sometimes silenced in Germany.
I know it's not really about Eurovision, but honestly who cares about Eurovision
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
But seriously, itβs the gay musical Olympics, whatβs not to love? (Unless youβre from Germany/UK in which itβs a point of national pride to dismiss Eurovision, lol?)
No, Germany loves to watch Eurovision, we don't care, that our own country sucks all the time. By now it's more of a meme and people are betting, how bad it's gonna be this year.
Simply removing them on the grounds of not being European should be easy enough and have happened as soon as they were let it. Same with Australia.
So you also want to kick out all the Arab states because they're "not European"? The EBU has always included the whole Mediterranean. It has Arab founding members.
Yes
And what's that supposed to achieve, besides appeasing your xenophobia?
What does that have to do with Xenophobia? You a liberal throwing around baseless accusations?
Not that I care about the political show of Eurovision, but it's made for Europe. Meaning only Europeans should participate.
Not that I care about the political show of Eurovision, but itβs made for Europe. Meaning only Europeans should participate.
It is made by the EBU, for its broadcasting area. That has always, since the very start, included the whole of the Mediterranean.
Not to mention that musically the Arabs are deeply intertwined with Europe due to millennia of cultural exchange over the highway called the Mediterranean. Morocco participated in 1980, but generally Arabs boycott the contest because Israel participates -- but that doesn't make them non-members of the EBU.
What, in the everloving fuck, but xenophobia could make you want to kick out founding members of the EBU. Do you also want to kick out Turkey? When you have a party and your direct neighbour wants to come, and traditionally was part of it, do you suddenly decide to slam the door into their face saying "you live on the wrong side of the backyard pool"?
Nice speech, but I do not care.
Yes I'd kick Turkey out too. As much as Turks want to pretend, they're not European either.
Ok xenophobia it is, then. You are literally advocating to ethnically purify the EBU.
Shall we also kick the Spaniards, Greeks and practically all of the Balkan out because their music is too "oriental", not adequate for your refined northwestern European taste?
Liberal really throwing a fit here. European is European. An European event is by definition for Europeans.
The EBU is called the European Broadcasting Union because it's centred around Europe. Not because it is European. In the geographic sense, it never was. Which I explained amply.
Just looked through your comment history and apparently you even think you're a leftist while overtaking LePen on the right. So get out of here, Strasserite or Nazbol or whatever you are.
Overtaking LePen on the right. Yeah right. Funny talk coming from a liberal. How about you get your shitty ass out of here before you "accidentally" empower some fascists again.
I'm more against the right than you could ever dream to be.
I wasn't going to watch it, because of the way the results are biased by the "experts". The difference between the public voting and the jury voting are too different and unfair. I would only watch if they transitioned to viewer voting only.
But now I have an extra reason not to.
Eh, the jury voting was brought in because votes tend to always go to neighbouring countries, regardless of how good their act was. It's just an imperfect system placed on top of another.
Maybe times have changed (except for a few like Greece - Cyprus). I feel the public votes are more diverse and true than the jury.
That aside, it is no surprise that culturally, neighboring countries are indeed closer music wise that distant countries. They have different music hits in Portugal than they have in Finland
They have actually changed the rules! Audiences choose who moves on to the final now - there are no jury votes in semis anymore. Only for the final.
Yep. That's only half a step though. I'll be back when they remove the jury from all votes.
No, back to the roots, please! Only in the native language of the countries, all singers accompanied by the same orchestra, and only jury votes. It used to be a very unique competition, but now it's just meh. Boring. Thanks, but no thanks.
Hell, no. That gives a huge advantage to Ireland and the UK for being understandable, and even more advantages for the European languages that are often considered "beautiful" like the Latin derivatives.
The competition was meant for composers and authors, not for musicians. Composition and lyrics only. Not performance, not voices or "beauty" of languages.
That's why I oppose public voting, because the audience tends to be very superficial. Have a jury of experts in composition and poetry. No music business, but pure art. In the beginning, the jurors voted primarily on the sheet music, without having even seen the performance.
The competition was meant for composers and authors, not for musicians. Composition and lyrics only. Not performance, not voices or "beauty" of languages.
Well that's not true anymore and I suspect most think that is a good thing.
I know it's not like that anymore. That's why I haven't watched it for at least 30 years. Boring commercial mainstream garbage.