tl;dw? Watched the first several minutes but still not even sure what it's about.
this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2025
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they're removing creators' ability to charge per creation and forcing them to charge only via monthly subscription.
It's an absolutely dick move by Patreon.
I guess Patreon figure it will make them as a platform more money, because people tend to forget about subscriptions and just let them keep going.
But it's awful for creators who release less frequently, because people will start to feel cheated when months go by and they don't get anything. And I'm sure the creators won't enjoy that pressure either.
It's like Patreon are cracking the whip, telling creators "Work faster, you have to justify your monthly subscription now!"
Assholes.
I guess I just be weird because an ongoing monthly subscription to a creator is never something I’m willing to consider, though I have made many one-time contributions.
It's about time for patreon to start being crappy, and lose to the next challenger who is good, if the cynic calendar is on point in this case.
Wow, that's sure gonna fuck a lot of creator that put out content once every few months.
Interesting, I wonder why they would do that...
More stable revenue for the shareholders maybe
I wondered too. It was explained here: https://lemmy.world/post/28040267
They don't really seem to know for sure either. I'd heard about the Apple issue a long time ago so it's curious that's it's being brought up now.
Obligatory Fuck Apple.
True. I should have said that there was enough information there to satisfy my interest in the matter. Which was small.
And this is why platforms are nice yet cutting the middle man is important. There was a time before walled gardens.
You kinda need a payment processor unless you want people to start mailing cash in the post.
Before people ruined it this was one of the ideas behind crypto
If nothing else it's a bit of a faff. But again you'd need someone to convert it to fiat for it to be useful in every day life, which isn't super removed from a payment processor. It's pretty much difficult to get away from a middleman somewhere.
The idea is it becomes the fiat
I hate so much everytime I remember what cryptocurrency was supposed to be and what has become.
For a little while I bought coffee and strawberries with Bitcoin back more than 9ish years ago. It was pretty cool easy with the first apps.
Worked well.
I got some works my a couple of contracts. So not so much Fiat was needed. Only later.
Direct bank transfers. Those are a thing.
p.s
They commented, I replied. Is it that exotheric of an idea? I can transfer money anywhere I want, to any bank account. You want to support someone, send them money directly.
There was a world before PayPal.
Widely sharing your bank details isn't usually considered a great idea.
My bank number account is a string of numbers. Besides the country and bank entity code, no other information can be obtained and no movements can be ordered on it by a non titular.
Money can be transfered in but the account can't be moved by anyone but the titular.
You'd be happy to post it on Lemmy with any required routing information?
If I was a creator of content, looking to have a direct way for people to support me, yes.
Are you interested in sponsoring my idiocy? Save your hard earned income; I wouldn't pay myself.
A simple no would've done.
Good morning! I apologize for leaving this hanging yesterday.
I am aware that making account numbers is highly unadvised by banks but I do know as well special accounts exist for public facing entities and professionals where withdrawing from it requires a very long and tedious process, with several security steps and verifications.
There is a local foundation that almost plasters their windows with poster with their IBAN. Local sports clubs do the same. The opportunities for malicious actors are plentiful, yet these entities do it, safely.
I don't doubt you can point me to some security flaw or loop hole but, getting back to the where this conversation started, cutting the middle man out should be a priority.
Those same payment processors can unilaterally change their terms of service and deny creators of their income. Paypal has done it. I wonder who else.
In my country I already have a transfer subsystem where I can give you my phone number and you can use it to transfer money directly to me. All national banks are part of and own that system.
Fintechs are shady or have too many strings attached.
Nice to meet you.
The threat model for a local sports club putting a bank account on their window is completely different than a popular content creator posting it on the internet. I can't speak definitively about your country, but it's probably safe to assume they have business accounts, which are different than personal accounts, incur fees for having them open, fees for deposits, fees for transfers etc - negating the monetary benefit you see from "cutting out the middle man".
Banks typically don't like you running businesses on personal accounts and they will notice. The scenario this particular creator describes will result in lots of small irregular payments and few withdrawals from the account - that's pretty much a textbook example of usage that will trigger a KYC red flag at a bank. Now your account is being investigated and has a chance of being closed/frozen.
We've not even gotten into international transfers, malicious "fans" trying to reverse payments/reporting you for fraud etc which could end up with your account frozen, the fact you now have to build and maintain your own infrastructure for web hosting, video sharing, customer service - which will eat time, money or both (and unless you're particularly technical you're likely to need several middlemen). You'll likely also need to deal with a drop in users/income because you've now made paying you significantly more difficult for many users.
Frankly, because you think there's an easy alternative doesn't mean there is one. There's a reason these middlemen exist - because everything I've described up there is difficult, time consuming and not what these creators want to be doing. Like them or not, many creators wouldn't be creators without them.
I'm going to try my best to answer your concerns, point by point. This has been a really good exchange.
The threat model for a local sports club putting a bank account on their window is completely different than a popular content creator posting it on the internet. I can't speak definitively about your country, but it's probably safe to assume they have business accounts, which are different than personal accounts, incur fees for having them open, fees for deposits, fees for transfers etc - negating the monetary benefit you see from "cutting out the middle man".
Yes, there are business accounts and personal accounts.
What distinguishes most business accounts from personal ones are connected automated paying terminals and facilitated overdraft, cash advance or factoring solutions.
I risk around 90% of all banks in my country charge for monthly account maintenance fees, transfer orders and other services. Most will try to offset that expense the customer has by offering a number of "free" services, like a number of free instant transfers or a couple of free or heavily reduced price for market orders.
Receiving money in an account is not something it has to be paid for.
Banks typically don't like you running businesses on personal accounts and they will notice. The scenario this particular creator describes will result in lots of small irregular payments and few withdrawals from the account - that's pretty much a textbook example of usage that will trigger a KYC red flag at a bank. Now your account is being investigated and has a chance of being closed/frozen.
I am fiscally declared as an independent professional, as is my partner. I receive small transfers in my account for payment of invoices I issue and my partner receives even more, as she has a used book store.
Both of us use our personal accounts to run our businesses. I have considered opening a second account, just to keep VAT and other values I receive from customers partitioned, and have called my bank questioning if there would be any issues in doing so and they did not care.
Even if my account was flagged for suspitious activities, it would be a matter for police and fiscal services to investigate, not the bank.
We've not even gotten into international transfers, malicious "fans" trying to reverse payments/reporting you for fraud etc which could end up with your account frozen, [...]
All transfers are final, here. You can file a complaint but you have to go to the police first, then present that complaint to the bank and wait for legal procedures to take place. Have your evidences ready, too.
[...] the fact you now have to build and maintain your own infrastructure for web hosting, video sharing, customer service - which will eat time, money or both (and unless you're particularly technical you're likely to need several middlemen). You'll likely also need to deal with a drop in users/income because you've now made paying you significantly more difficult for many users.
You're describing a multinational. And I'm concerned with getting paid, alone. A creator should employ whatever services they see fit to forward their business, be it video editors, IT services, etc. Services from which they should be capable of detaching in favor of another, better, offer.
For some reason, Youtube came to mind as read that snippet of your text. That company should be starved tomorrow. There are several hosting services you can hire to upload and share your video - or any other, by extent - content and withold your work as yours. How many creators have had their work demonitized, for them, because what they do does not align with the platform morality yet the platform still loads adds on those videos for the people watching it?
Frankly, because you think there's an easy alternative doesn't mean there is one. There's a reason these middlemen exist - because everything I've described up there is difficult, time consuming and not what these creators want to be doing. Like them or not, many creators wouldn't be creators without them
Just because one solution exists, does not mean it has to be the one and only, and right now, the platforms that offer these services do not serve their customers better interests.
The post above is about patreon and how their changes are impacting a comic artist in the UK. Your banking experience where you live is largely irrelevant. Your bank can and will close an account if you don't match their risk profile - no investigation by police or financial services required.
You're describing a multinational. And I'm concerned with getting paid, alone. A creator should employ whatever services they see fit to forward their business, be it video editors, IT services, etc. Services from which they should be capable of detaching in favor of another, better, offer.
No, I'm describing a small content creator. You're adding middlemen that can interrupt service here, not removing them.
Just because one solution exists, does not mean it has to be the one and only, and right now, the platforms that offer these services do not serve their customers better interests.
I didn't say it was the one and only. I said they exist for a reason, because doing this stuff on your own through disparate services can be difficult, time consuming and not what the creator wants to do with their time. If the services offered align with the users needs then it absolutely makes sense to use these middle men. You're the one suggesting abandoning middlemen and using direct bank transfers as a primary means of doing business.
Where do you even live? Do you own your money? Does not seem like it.
A bank can not close an account here, unless the costumer actively requires it. There are banks that will close an empty account, with no movements to it for a determined time, but even then the institution is obligated to warn the client in advance. There is even a special, minimal bank services account, established by force of law, where it is established that no bank, acting in the country, can deny access to bank services and charge more than a established amount for it, per year.
Risk assement is done in a case by case system; there is no such thing as a credit score. The only thing it exists is a data base, at the central bank, for credit responsabilities, and if you default you are banned from accessing credit, not bank services. A client can have zero credit near a bank, use their services, and maintain their account as long as they live.
What you do with your account is your business. I should know: I worked for a company that owed money to state, suppliers and the bank itself and it only their account frozen after a judicial order was issued.
And yes, I am claiming to cut the middleman and have more money delivered to the creators. And I stand by those words.
What makes it seem like I don't own my money?
You seem fixated on where you live and your own experience - which doesn't appear to be at all relevant to the situation we're talking about.
Risk assement is done in a case by case system; there is no such thing as a credit score. The only thing it exists is a data base, at the central bank, for credit responsibilities, and if you default you are banned from accessing credit, not bank services. A client can have zero credit near a bank, use their services, and maintain their account as long as they live.
Who's talking about credit scores? This is AML/KYC regulation lol. If you're in the EU I'm fairly sure AML regs require monitoring of customer accounts/transactions for suspicious activity.
Banks can and do absolutely close bank accounts in the UK for falling outside the risk profile of the bank. It's happened to everyone from MPs down. Basic banking services are available to everyone where legal to do so, but these accounts don't have features of current accounts and transfers etc can be limited - not ideal for running a business.
And yes, I am claiming to cut the middleman and have more money delivered to the creators. And I stand by those words.
At every step of the way what you've described has included more complexity and expense to the creator.
It seems we are forced to agree on disagreement.
I can agree with that.
"Hey guys come catch all my new videos on my own website"
Put the old stuff on YouTube, FB, insta, tiktok, and encourage traffic to your site.
Profit.
You trying to ask creators to create stuff? Crazy talk. That's so 2006.
These platforms have incentives to keep you on the platform. So their recommendation algos will purposefully down rank stuff that tries to convert to elsewhere.
Pretty much, allows you to set your own content policy really, as long as you don't break laws the only risk then is for the domain name. Not sure what you would have to do for most domain registrars to drop your domain.
I always tell my kids about survival jobs. Youtube, Twitch, being an artist are all gigs. Most of these people have another job. Even professional actors have a job than acting, same as authors.
And don't forget that sometimes websites can randomly close your account without warning and reason given. They will just say you violated their terms of use without telling you what you did.
Years ago I tried to make a living on eBay, making up to $5K a month with an eBay store. The only problem was that they would randomly shut me down for a few days, a week, even a month, with little to no information as to why. Whenever there was information, it simply wasn't true. There was nobody to appeal to, and any contact was met with a canned email.
Worse, they didn't just suspend my store, they would delete it entirely, so when the suspension ended, I would have to rebuild my entire store from scratch (over 200 different items). To compound the issue, any transactions that were processing at the time of the suspension kept going without being able to make contact with them, causing lost sales and bad customer service, resulting in poor reviews that dragged my rating down. I was busting my ass to operate professionally, and my only problem was eBay itself.
Eventually, compounded with issues with PayPal, I concluded that I could never make a living using those sketchy platforms. Occasionally, I'll buy something on eBay, but I've never used it to sell anything since.
Wow, I hope you were able to move elsewhere for your online store. It sucks easy did that. There is a human you can get to but that was years ago. Last time was in 2020 when I talked to a human in chat when I was having an issue with my order.
Not sure if it changed.
Back in 2004/5 there was nobody to speak with. It was all by email, and the only response was just a form letter.
And no, there was no place else to go, I just stopped doing that business, and started an entirely different, off line, business.
I didnt realize it was that long ago. Ebay has changed a lot. It used to be, people just sold stuff there to get rid of and then people started to do businesses on it and now it's catered towards professional sellers than for people who just want to get rid of stuff. There are payouts now. Most items are buy it now than bidding. Not so much of an auction site.
We need to get rid of gatekeepers!
Depends on what you do I guess, I'll admit I didn't feel like watching the video. There's always Kickstarter, or Etsy, or eBay? Or GoFundMe if you want to just outright beg for money.
After watching the video, fuck Apple for taking an exhorbitant 30% cut, and fuck Patreon for demanding that creators use the Apple in-app purchase system. This is shown at 7:10 if you want to skip past a lot of her fluff.