this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2023
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If C++ has undefined behavior, Rust has childish behavior (lemmy.world)
submitted 11 months ago by AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world to c/programmerhumor@lemmy.ml
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(joke in the title stolen from a redditor)

Context: some Rust kid vandalized cppreference.com today.

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[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

That kid is an asshole because cppreference is doing the lord's work.

Also, I know that language choice is one of the most important decisions when starting a new project but, personally, I work on a highly performance sensitive project that's written in PHP. If you think you need Rust to be performant or type safe then you don't really know what you're doing yet. It makes it easier and increases theoretical limits - that is all.

[–] istdaslol@feddit.de 0 points 11 months ago

I want to tell the computer what it should do, not what the computer things I can do. That’s why I use scratch

[–] livingcoder@programming.dev 1 points 11 months ago

As someone who learned a lot from C++ and that now loves Rust, this annoys me.

[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

An attitude I've seen a lot among software developers is that basically there aren't "good languages" and "bad languages." That all languages are equal and all criticisms of particular languages and all opinions that some particular language is "bad" are invalid.

I couldn't disagree more.

The syntax, tooling, standard library, third-party libraries, documentation quality, language maintainers' policies, etc are of course factors that can be considered when evaluating how "good" a language is. But definitely one of the biggest factors that should be considered is how assholeish the community around a particular language is.

A decade or two ago, Ruby developers had a reputation for being smug and assholeish. I can't say I knew a statistically significant number of Ruby developers, but the ones I did know definitely embodied that stereotype. I've heard recently that the Rust community has similar issues.

The Rust language has some interesting features that have made me want to look deeper, but what I've heard about the community around Rust has so far kept me away.

I write Java for a paycheck, but for my side projects, Go is my (no pun intended) go-to language. I've heard nothing but good things about its community. I think I'll stick with it for a while.

[–] herr@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

But definitely one of the biggest factors that should be considered is how assholeish the community around a particular language is.

I think all of the factors you've mentioned are extremely valid, but this is the one factor that I think should absolutely not count into whether something's a 'good' or 'bad' language. If I'm choosing which technologies to use for my next project, the question of whether it has a rude vocal minority in its community is AS FAR DOWN on my list as possible. Right next to whether its name is hip or whether their homepage is engaging.

[–] TheGalacticVoid@lemm.ee 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

A toxic community won't help you in good faith when you're running into issues, and this makes it harder to develop using a language with a toxic community.

[–] herr@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

idk, how do I contact "the community" when I have an issue in the first place? All I know of is StackOverflow, and they're honestly toxic enough to make me never ask questions there in the first place.

[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, but the shittiness of a shitty community will come through in documentation that talks down to you and doesn't dain to explain things properly. And then when you go and ask a question because it wasn't well explained in the documentation and get derided for asking.

Fanboys are also likely to mislead (including in documentation) by downplaying caveats in libraries and such. Documentation can end up being more like marketing speak than technical reference.

You speak of "vocal minorities", but I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Languages have cultures around them. (As do lots of other things. Video games. Hardware devices. Car brands. What have you.) If a language has a toxic community around it, it might be an indication that the people behind the language may lack the ability or motivation to maintain a better community. Or worse, that they're doing things that promote or attract the shittiness.

So, in short, I disagree with you. For one thing "everything about this language is great except its community is shitty" makes me suspicious that maybe everything about the language isn't great and it has a really fanboyish community that likes to suppress any (even legitimate) negativity. Where I have to, I use the language I have to use, but when I have a choice, a shitty community is generally a deal breaker for me.

[–] Schmeckinger@feddit.de 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Rust documentation, at least for std is some of the best I have seen.

[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Gotcha. I can't really speak to the quality of any Rust official documentation.

[–] Schmeckinger@feddit.de 0 points 11 months ago

Whats also nice is thst you put the documentation in the code and rust automatically generates a documentation page thsts hosted on docs.rs. So it makes really easy to have good docs for your stuff. If only everyone would document their stuff perfectly. A lot of the new released stuff gets released with minimal documentation.

[–] Sunrosa@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

In my experience the actual rust community that you'll be seeing if you work with the language is actually incredibly nice and open minded. It's got a lot of autistic people and other minorities who are more emotionally mature than a lot of adults. Rust people can be smug sometimes talking to "outsiders" but once you're in the community the problem disappears