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If you could ask one question and get a 100% true answer, what would it be and why?
(lemmy.blahaj.zone)
this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
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A nobel prize if you could prove it, which you cannot currently.
Literally the biggest, hairiest problem in computation right now. Only thing keeping us from blowing the lid off AGI is not knowing or even remotely understanding what consciousness is.
Our brain is literally nothing but electrical impulses.
We don't know what specific arrangement of impulses, but we know 100% that it's electrical impulses.
Again, it has been yet to be proved.
If it seems so obvious to you, please go on and prove it. You'll die a nobel laureate rather than an armchair dbag.
What are you smoking? It's been proved, inasmuch as "it's daytime when the sun is out" has been proved.
Our brain is made up of neurons firing electrical impulses.
Consciousness is in the brain.
Therefore, somewhere in those electrical impulses is consciousness.
Strange you get so defensive. Maybe it's because your psyche can't handle the fact that there's nothing after death, and you need to cling to whatever faint hope you have that there might be such thing as a soul?
No it hasn't, and if you don't see why, and why your explanation is incredibly simplistic and insufficient as an explanation of consciousness, you may not fully realise or understand the problem.
I don't believe in life after death etc. and I believe consciousness is indeed manifested somewhere in the brain (and tied to those electrical impulses in some way), yet find your explanation utterly insufficient to address the "hard problem" of consciousness. It doesn't explain qualia, or subjective experience.
Now obviously we do seem to have proved that consciousness is somehow related to such electrical impulses and other processes in the brain... but to say that we even begin to understand how actual subjective conscious experience arises from this is simply not true.
For starters: your logical steps from brain uses electricity -> consciousness is in the brain -> therefore consciousness is in the electrical impulses is a non-sequitur.
To illustrate: CPUs are made up of logic gates that utilise electricity to perform many operations. We know mathematical calculations are done in the CPU. Therefore mathematics is in the logic gates. Does that sound right to you? Is that in any way a satisfactory explanation of what maths is, or where mathemarical concepts exists or how marhs came to be? Does maths only exist in electrical logic gates?
Doesn't seem at all right does it? Yet that's precisely the same leap of logic you just used.
Now before you reply with "ah, but that's totally different" carefully examine why you think it's different for consciousness...
In addition, there are more than just electrical impulses going on in the brain. Why do you choose electrical or only electrical? Do you think all electrical systems are conscious? What about a computer? What about your house electrical system? Do you draw a distinction? If so, where is the distinction? Can you accurately describe what exactly about certain electrical systems and not others gives rise to direct subjective experience and qualia? What is the precise mechanism that leads to electrons providing a conscious subjective experience? Would a thinking simulation of a brain experience the same qualia?
If you really can't see what I'm getting at with any of this, perhaps you might be a philosophical zombie.. not actually conscious yourself. Just a chemical computer firing some impulses that perfectly simulates a conscious entity, just like an AI but in meat form. Carefully consider: how do you personally know if this is or isn't true?
Okay, I'll give it a shot.
Okay, fine. Consciousness is exclusively in the brain. Now your whole metaphor falls apart, because mathematics is not exclusively in the CPU. It is not subjective. It does not arise from the existence of the CPU. It is a concept separate from the CPU, or indeed any matter.
I thought about it, and my conclusion is "it's because I'm not a fuckin moron" .
Pedantry. "Electrical impulses" is a close enough phrase to describe a host of related but slightly different things.
All the rest of your questions are stupid ridiculous garbage based on some weird fixation you have with electricity. Like I said, it's a phrase I used to avoid giving a 3 semester lecture on the minutiae of everything going on in the brain.
My comment just touched the tip of an iceberg that is an entire realm of philosophical and scientific debate that has occupied some of the brightest minds, across multiple disciplines, for decades. But sure, it's just stupid ridiculous garbage 🙄
You probably think you sounded really clever.
Philosophy, as a field, is full of idiots and I have no respect for it.
But also the premise dealt with the tip of the iceberg and nothing more. The extent of our conversation is (heh) just the tip.
"Consciousness is electrical impulses in the brain". That's it. The extent of our debate is whether this is true or not. Not how those impulses give rise to consciousness, which is what the greater debate (among those who are not idiots) is about.
Petroleum is what makes cars move, obviously. That's it!
All those engineers and mechanics who waffle on about physics, laws of motion, and engines and stuff are all a bunch of idiots. I have no respect for them. I don't need to know about that stuff to talk about how cars work!
You just put petrol in it, it burns and it moves. Burning petrol is what makes cars move. That's all we're talking about here! The extent of our debate is whether or not petrol makes cars move. Not how it makes cars go, that's a wider debate for non-idiots.
(Electric cars? Nonsense. Where's the gas tank?)
(Boats? No, they're completely different. I mean yes you put the same fuel in them, but they're clearly not cars, so it's not the same.)
I specifically called out philosophy as being full of idiots rather than literally any other field for a reason.
For example, your post.
You are wading in with extreme arrogance in an area you clearly know very little about.
Many of the most prominent ideas in the field of consciousness are from physicists, biologists, and other scientific fields. The issues are in some cases fundamental to the philosophy of science itself. This is the very bleeding edge of science, where hard physics and metaphysics collide.
Why do you think consciousness remains known as the "hard problem", and still a considered contentious mystery to modern science, if your simplistic ideas can so easily explain it?
Do you think your naive ideas have not already been thoroughly debated and explored by scientists and philosophers over years of debate and research? The extremely simplistic and basic points you have raised (even ignoring the fallacious ones) are easily invalidated by anyone with even a basic grasp of this field (or indeed basic logic or scientific methodology).
Besides the above, you have clearly not understood the main point of my comment, not engaged in any actual logical debate or analysis of the issues raised (indeed you don't even to comprehend or recognise what these are) and demonstrated a near total ignorance of modern theories of consciousness.
You had a chance to open your eyes to a whole realm of knowledge and discovery in a fascinating field at the cutting edge of modern science and reason and you just utterly failed to engage with it, handwaving it away with ignorance and stupidity.
You people really need to stop pretending like because one guy published a paper calling it the "hard problem" that it's somehow a deep impossible to solve scientific question. It's just intellectual dishonesty, trying to paint it as if it's equivalent to solving the problem of making nuclear fusion work or something.
It's not. And yes, philosophy is full of idiots who never justify any of their premises. David Chalmers in his paper where he calls it the "hard problem" quotes Thomas Nagel's paper as "proof" that experience is something subjective, and then just goes forward with his argument as if it's "proven," but Nagel's paper is complete garbage, and so nothing Chalmers argues beyond that holds any water, but is just something a lot of philosophers blindly accept even though it is nonsensical.
Nagel claims that the physical sciences don't incorporate point-of-view, and that therefore point-of-view must be a unique property of mammals, and that experience is point-of-view dependent, so experience too must come from mammals, and therefore science has to explain the origin of experience.
But his paper was wildly outdated when he wrote it. By then, we already had general relativity for decades, which is a heavily point-of-view dependent theory as there is no absolute space or time but its properties depend upon your point of view. Relational quantum mechanics also interprets quantum mechanics in a way that gets rid of all the weirdness and makes it incredibly intuitive and simple just with the singular assumption that the properties of particles depends upon point-of-view not that much different than general relativity with the nature of space and time, and so there is no absolute state of a system anymore.
Both general relativity and relational quantum mechanics not only treat reality as point-of-view dependent but tie itself back directly to experience: they tell you what you actually expect to observe in measurements. In quantum mechanics they are literally called observables, entities identifiable by their experiential properties.
Nagel is just an example of am armchair philosopher who does not engage with the sciences so he thinks they are all still Newtonian with some sort of absolute world independent of point-of-view. If the natural world is point-of-view dependent all the way down, then none of Nagel's arguments follow. There is no reason to believe point-of-view is unique to mammals, and then there is further no reason to think the point-of-view dependence of experience makes it inherently mammalian, and thus there is no reason to call experience "subjective."
Although I prefer the term "context" rather than "point-of-view" as it is more clear what it means, but it means the same thing. The physical world is just point-of-view dependent all the way down, or that is to say, context-dependent. We just so happen to be objects and thus like any other, exist in a particular context, and thus experience reality from that context. Our experiences are not created by our brains, experience is just objective reality from the context we occupy. What our brain does is think about and reflect upon experience (reality). It formulates experience into concepts like "red," "tree," "atom," etc. But it does not create experience.
The entire "hard" problem is based on a faulty premise based on science that was outdated when it was written.
If experience just is reality from a particular context then it makes no sense to ask to "derive" it as Chalmers and Nagel have done. You cannot derive reality, you describe it. Reality just is what it is, it just exists. Humans describe reality with their scientific theories, but their theories cannot create reality. That doesn't even make sense. All modern "theories of consciousness" are just nonsense as they all are based on the false premise that experience is not reality but some illusion created by the mammalian brain and that "true" reality is some invisible metaphysical entity that lies beyond all possible experience, and thus they demand we somehow need a scientific theory to show how this invisible reality gives rise to the visible realm of experience. The premise is just silly. Reality is not invisible. That is the nonsensical point of view.
I wasn't arguing from a non-scientific point view at all. Reality is there. That doesn't make the problem any less "hard". But I think it is "hard", not "impossible".
And as any modern physicist will tell you: most of reality is indeed invisible to us. Most of the universe is seemingly comprised of an unknown substance, and filled with an unknown energy. Most of the universe that we can see more directly follows rules that are unintuitive and uses processes we can't see. Not only can't we see them, our own physics tells is it is literally impossible to measure all of them consistently.
Yet despite this, physics works. We can use our minds and tools to reveal the invisible truth. That's why I believe in the scientific method, and why I think consciousness is not necessarily an impossible problem (unlike Nagel).
But subjective consciousness and qualia fit nowhere in our modern model of physics. It's potentially "nature of reality"-level stuff -- and I don't mean hippy quasi-scientific mumbo jumbo by this, I mean it seems to reach right down deep into the fundamentals of what physics is and seeks to achieve, to a level that we have not yet uncovered.
I don't think it's impossible to explain consciousness. It is part of the universe and the universe is there for us to study. But we are not ready to answer the question. We don't even fully understand what the question is really asking. It sidesteps our current model of physics. Obviously it is intimately connected to processes in the brain somehow... but that somehow is, currently, an absolute mystery.
I don't subscribe to Nagel's belief that it is impossible to solve, but I do understand how the points he raises are legitimate points that illustrate how consciousness does not fit into our current scientific model of the universe.
If I had to choose anyone I'd say my thoughts on the subject are closest to Roger Penrose's line of thinking, with a dash of David Chalmers.
I think if anyone doesn't see why consciousness is "hard" then there are two possibilities: 1) they haven't understood the question and its scientific ramifications 2) they're not conscious.
How can we possibly know this unless it was made through an observation?
That's a hidden variable theory, presuming that systems really have all these values and we just can't measure them all consistently due to some sort of practical limitation but still believing that they're there. Hidden variable theories aren't compatible with the known laws of physics. The values of the observables which become indefinite simply cease to have existence at all, not that they are there but we can't observe them.
How so? What is "consciousness"? Why do you think objects of qualia are special over any other kind of object?
You haven't even established what it is you're trying to explain or why you think there is some difficulty to explain it.
So, you don't even know what you're asking but you're sure that it's not compatible with the currently known laws of physics?
But how?! You are just repeating the claim over and over again when the point of my comment is that the claim itself is not justified. You have not established why there is a "hard problem" at all but just continually repeat that there is.
Meaningless.
You literally do not understand the topic at hand based on your own words. Not only can you not actually explain why you think there is a "hard problem" at all, but you said yourself you don't even know what question you're asking with this problem. Turning around and then claiming everyone who doesn't agree with you is just some ignoramus who doesn't understand then is comically ridiculous, and also further implying people who don't agree with you may not even be conscious.
Seriously, that's just f'd up. What the hell is wrong with you? Maybe you are so convinced of this bizarre notion you can't even explain yourself because you dehumanize everyone who disagrees with you and never take into consideration other ideas.
Who's the arrogant one? Piss off, blowhard. I respect scientists. Not people like you, who pretend to be one.
You respect scientists? Yet you reject science and scientific thinking when it hits you in the face.
What proof do you want? We can explain everything in the brain. We know how neurons work, we know how they interact. We even know, where specific parts of "you" are in your brain.
The only thing missing is the exact map. What you are lacking is the concept of emergence. Seriously, look it up. Extremely simple rules can explain extremely sophisticated behavior.
Your stance is somewhere between "thunder go boom! Must be scary man in sky!" And "magnets! Can't explain how they work!".
Stop armchairing and start giving me scientific articles, Doc.
OF WHAT? There's nothing to give you. I could lay out an exact map of your brain and you would still complain. You obviously just desperately want there to be some magic, because everything else would just implode your world. There is no magic.
Also, if you want your pseudoscientific parlance: non-existence can't be proven. However, you're arguing for the existence of something. It's your burden to prove it.
The burden of proof is on you, not me.
If there's nothing to give me then I guess you're agreeing it's not so straightforward.
You can go away now. 🥂 cheers.
You claim that there is more. There is currently no evidence of "more".
So you have to provide evidence.
BTW: awesome move, to just unilaterally end the conversation, if you're actually challenged. Totally not ignorance, nope, that's a scientist right there.
Youre a joke.
Here. Your turn.
https://iep.utm.edu/hard-problem-of-conciousness/#:~:text=The%20hard%20problem%20of%20consciousness%20is%20the%20problem%20of%20explaining,directly%20appear%20to%20the%20subject.
First of all, "why" is simply not a valid scientific question. "How" is the only relevant term.
Secondly, this is a philosophy article. Philosophy is not a science, to explain a brain. We don't fully understand quantum physics, would you ask a philosopher about that?
And finally: insulting another person, because they question your belief. Awesome behavior. Do you want to assemble a mob next to burn me at the stake?
Literally try Google. I'm not here to educate you.
Bye!
Well, you can't educate me. You hardly managed to educate yourself.
One of my favorite quotes about this subject:
“Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than we are conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not conscious of. How simple that is to say; how difficult to appreciate! It is like asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something that does not have any light shining upon it. The flashlight, since there is light in whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude that there is light everywhere. And so consciousness can seem to pervade all mentality when actually it does not.”
-Julian Jaynes
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
I think another good analogie is the human eye. Only the center has high resolution, everything around it is rather shitty, but you never realize that, because the stuff you focus on is always in the center.
Try to look at your self into your eyes the mirror while you are not looking at yourself :)