this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2024
188 points (97.5% liked)

News

23310 readers
3526 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] tal@lemmy.today 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I'm not that worried about this.

It wasn't a good idea for Iran back when Iran tried bombing airliners as leverage.

I am even more comfortable saying that it'd be a bad idea for Russia.

Russia could, no doubt, bring down airliners one way or another if it were set on doing so, but:

  • I think that it's very questionable that Russia actually benefits from escalation. That will only happen if Russia is (a) being irrational (not impossible, but diplomats can go bang on that), or (b) we've dicked up managing the escalation ladder. Russia doesn't come out on top in pretty much any kind of conflict with NATO, so trying to generate more conflict once Russia hits the "there is a response" threshold, which they are definitely past, seems like a bad idea.

  • What's the worst that happens? Maybe a coordinated attack on multiple airliners, kills a few hundred, thousand people, destroys a handful of jets? I mean, sure, that's bad, but it's not that big a deal as interstate conflict goes. Like, if Russia wants to attack in some way, that's a pretty bad way to expend the advantage of surprise.

Maybe the idea could be that an attack couldn't be firmly attributed to Russia, especially if Russian intelligence tries paying people in country to do something, as was the case IIRC with those arson attacks earlier, but then it's at least more-difficult for Russia to use that as leverage. Like, trying to make use of the window where you both have plausible deniability so that the other side doesn't feel like they're on firm enough ground to act and actually feels confident enough that you were responsible to be affected by using it as leverage seems like a very narrow and dangerous place to act.

If it were a fantastic way to conduct interstate conflict, then this sort of thing would be the norm in interstate conflict, and it isn't.

[–] circuscritic@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

As risky and escalatory as it is, I can at least understand using freight airplanes to deliver incendiary packages to shipping warehouses.

I'm not saying I think it's good, but I can at least piece together the rationale for such actions from Russia.

The same cannot be said for blowing up civilian airliners.

Just from a realpolitik perspective, domestic support for military aid to Ukraine is broadly down across the voting populace in most, if not all, of Ukraine's biggest ($$$$) partners. Eventually that will likely result in the election of candidates who reflect that view.

Want to know the fastest way to not just immediately reverse that, but have 75%+ of the voting populace support radically escalating Western involvement? Blow up one of their civilian airliners.

Shit, blow up a French airliner and I'd say it would be coin flip whether they deploy active duty military ready for combat operations, in theatre, within a month.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)
[–] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sure, but that was accidental. If they could have avoided that shootdown, they would have, and while I have no doubt that a lot of countries were annoyed by them not paying compensation, they were also aware that Russia wasn't intentionally trying to shoot down an airliner.

If Russia, say, adopted a policy of sending fighters into Poland and firing missiles at any airliners they find in Polish airspace, that's going to garner a more-unpleasant response.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Sure, but that was accidental.

Putin:

[–] circuscritic@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Downing a civilian aircraft with a SAM battery, or MANPAD, near an active conflict, is galaxies apart from planting explosives on civilian airliners.

And I don't mean legally speaking, although it is, I mean they aren't even in the same universe when talking about blowback, politics, military responses, threat management, PR, escalation ladders, etc.