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After a day and several replies from people. I've come to the conclusion that people here are ok with their party and leaders supporting genocide and they attack the questioners (instead of their party leaders) who criticize those who support genocide. Critical thinking is scarce here.
I'm shameful of humanity.
the democrats are already winning the votes of young and decided voters.
they're the party of personal Liberty, sustainable technology, international cooperation, climate change, minority representation, they're doing fine on popular progressive issues.
what are you saying is based on a false premise.
also, third party voting is fine. it is what voting actually is supposed to be, as it is in most countries.
you vote for the candidate that most aligns with your values.
If the democrats will ignore our demands and continue their support and funding of genocidal regime then they will lose this election.
the democrats are doing great, especially after the resounding success at the debate.
there is plenty of counter evidence against your whining.
The democrats have a huge following, also, importantly, this is an election.
they could lose anyway. That's what an election is.
If you want to vote for a third party, go for it, that is how voting works.
given that Harris has already pushed forward momentum on basically every major progressive policy for the past 4 years, you'd be an idiot not to vote for harris and walz if you care about people at all.
"If the democrats will ignore our demands..."
you draw lazy memes and have no valid arguments. it doesn't sound like you really care about anything.
nobody cares about your pretension.
You seem very happy with this democrat government. But would you start hating them if they include policy like ending support/funding of genocide?
that would be good also.
It's good you finally learned about the Palestinian genocide, but threatening to let conservatives further mangle the country when you have a progressive alternative is selfish and incredibly narrow-minded.
stopping the US from sending weapons will not stop Israel.
they are a third party with plenty of international support and funding that is under no obligation to listen to the US.
The US can stop sending bombs tomorrow, they could have stopped sending bombs months ago and Israel's military would atill be fully prepared to continue this war as long as they want to, regardless.
you are shooting yourself and everybody around you in the foot for rhe privilege of eating night soil by voting against harris.
And how exactly is not voting doing that when...
Either the Democrats are comfortably winning (in which case we can vote with our conscience), or they're not (in which case vocal opposition to genocide might encourage them to change policies to garner our vote).
The alternative is that nothing will get them to change policies because they're not interested in our vote. In which case the whole "turn up and the Democrats will move left" theory is nonsense.
"Either the Democrats are comfortably winning"
Don't get comfortable in a democracy that works.
people get to vote who they want to vote for.
"The alternative is that..." - the illusion of only two choices comes from your having grown up with a broken democracy.
"In which case the whole "turn up and the Democrats will move left" theory is nonsense."
this is nonense.
none of this is the neat logic game you want it to be.
in an election, people get to vote for who they want to vote for.
in this election, Harris is the clear better choice for people who are not selfish.
this does not mean that she wins.
And yet...
So presumably it is the "neat clear logic game" you want it to be.
You haven't answered any of the criticisms raised against your argument.
It's OK to just disagree with me and explain why, you know. You don't have to label all opposing arguments as 'nonsense' (or misinformation, or ideologically biased, or whatever the latest buzz-term is...). You can just disagree. Humans are marvellous like that, we look at things differently from each other and form different views as a result. We even have this amazing tool 'rational discourse' whereby we can dissect those differences. It's great.
If you think one (or more) of my criticisms flawed, then quote it and point out the flaw. Try it, you might like it.
"So presumably it is the "neat clear logic game" you want it to be."
no, I literally said it isn't the clear logic game you wanted to be.
"You haven't answered any of the criticisms raised against your argument."
i've addressed every criticism I've received so far, but if you wrote them to other people or somewhere else then I haven't seen them.
Go ahead, ask away.
Yes,and then you went on to present a clear logic game of your own (vote for Kamala=good), hence my criticism.
I thought I had but...
If the Democrats are not assured victory (as you now seem to be saying) then why is the anti-genocide strategy supposed to be 'vote for them anyway', and not 'refuse to vote for them unless they change their policy'.
We start from the premise that Democrats need votes (either because they're losing, or because they don't want to rest on their laurels). We agree one of these is the case, yes?
So your anti-genocide solution is to just give them the votes they need without asking for anything in return.
The solution @when@lemmy.world suggested, which you're arguing against, is to negotiate. To use the power we have as voters whose vote they need (or really, really want), to ask for a change in policy in return for that vote.
You haven't explained why the latter won't work other than the Democrats not wanting those votes, or not wanting to end the genocide.
If we assume both - the Democrats want to end genocide and want more votes, them why wouldn't they offer to end genocide in exchange for more votes?
"Yes,and then you went on to present a clear logic game of your own (vote for Kamala=good), hence my criticism."
you don't understand the comment and are simplifying its specific conclusion to a fundamental moral rule you can understand that I did not make.
this is your exact same problem I pointed out before, your beliefs are overly simplistic. everything has to be black and white for you, including explanations of shades of gray.
"the Democrats are not assured victory (as you now seem to be saying)"
as I have been saying from the beginning and consistently throughout, nobody is assured victory in an election.
that is how elections work.
"why is the anti-genocide strategy supposed to be 'vote for them anyway', and not 'refuse to vote for them unless they change their policy'. "
it is not.
again, you're lumping in one thing with everything else for no reason.
If you are a single issue voter, and your vote is determined by the last single year of a 70-year military policy, that's your limiting judgment.
you have irrationally decided that a prospective presidential candidate from neither Israel nor Palestine, who wasn't born when US military aid to Israel began, needs to be held politically responsible for all of us history despite its irrelevancy to the issue at hand, the issue of discussion, her clear advantage over the only other significant presidential candidate.
that is selfish and short-sighted, but it isn't fundamentally wrong because you have that choice as a voter.
refuse to vote for whoever you want to, but closely examine why you are refusing to vote and if it makes sense within your own values (such as they are ), the context of the whole rest of the world or at least the rest of the political landscape.
You're willing to sacrifice American minority civil rights, climate change, abortion rights, every other progressive policy, to... demonstrate your newly found conscience regarding a third country that you are not part of the electorate of?
that is mind-blowingly selfish and wrong-headed, sort of like deliberately setting explosives and blowing up your family, home kitchen and the rest of the block because a McDonald's restaurant you just found out about introduced some sort of allergen ingredient into their burgers.
"We start from the premise that Democrats need votes (either because they're losing, or because they don't want to rest on their laurels). We agree one of these is the case, yes?"
not at all. you have made up two possible reasons that you can understand out of many.
you are playing in your sandbox, I am observing and gently pointing out the difference between sand and dog vomit.
"So your anti-genocide solution is to just give them the votes they need without asking for anything in return."
no.
you're make-believing random assumptions, straw men and limited inevitabilities rather than asking questions.
hip, inconsiderate cynicism isn't going to get you anywhere with me; sincerity and honesty in discourse is the only way you're going to move forward.
"...suggested, which you're arguing against, is to negotiate..."
they literally said " Unless they give in to our demands", they would rry to tank the US in retaliation.
first, that's unrealistic, as most people don't have such a limited understanding of the political process.
second, that is not good faith negotiation, That's impotent crybaby tantrum territory.
set over the backdrop of a meme that maybe took them one minute to put together as all the effort they were willing to expend on their "political ideology".
"To use the power we have as voters whose vote they need (or really, really want), to ask for a change in policy in return for that vote."
That's fine, go for it. You're attacking the current democrats from the flawed premise that the Israeli military and government is sonehow dependent on US support alone, which is as false as a notion can be, but trying to effect change through voting is a good, solid place to start from.
"You haven't explained why the latter won't work other than the Democrats not wanting those votes, or not wanting to end the genocide."
Yes I have, you didn't understand the explanation.
equating the current election and all of its complexity with a single half century old policy of mutual political support with a US ally is wrong-headed.
a minority of voters are willing to throw away their country.
these are conservatives.
an even smaller minority of voters, who ostensibly don't believe in conservative policies, are willing to join the conservatives to demonstrate their outrage toward a political party not any more responsible than anybody else for a separate Nations policy of genocide that has been happening for more than half a century.
I don't know if you can understand this yet, but your anger toward Israel is a complete non-issue toward the reality of the 2024 election.
If the public display of your newfound conscience is important enough to you to sacrifice all of your other beliefs and the rights of everybody you know and then some, that is your selfish prerogative as a voter.
"If we assume both - the Democrats want to end genocide and want more votes, them why wouldn't they offer to end genocide in exchange for more votes?"
The answer is in your flawed assumptions. If you're willing to sacrifice your own and everybody else's rights because you just learned about what Israel is doing to Palestine, then you clearly aren't in the right mind to be swayed toward social compassion or your own conscience, since you have not yet developed a conscience.
you don't have any real beliefs if you claim to care about Palestinian peope but you don't care about any Americans around you or the society you are a part of.
You have not suddenly become politically aware. You have joined a trend, a fad.
you are an ignorant radical, and it is not worth the trouble or sacrifice for the larger democratic platform, tirelessly fighting for your civil rights, to placate or give in to the selfish demands of an ignorant radical (or a toddler) for the possibility of a small number of votes.
being against genocide doesn't mean you have to vote one way or the other.
it is one issue among hundreds.
examine all of the issues and choose where to vote.
I strongly support third party voting (called " voting" in democratically free countries).
in this election, one of the candidates, a minority herself (within context) has already made historically significant progress in most of the environmental and social policies important to me.
she is who I am voting for because I have an independent, practical, comprehensive and expanding political understanding and elective ideology. a firm foundation from which to analyze policy and make decisions upon.
you should develop one too.
Tl;Dr
"I'm really clever and have thought through my decision really carefully so anyone who disagrees with that decision must be really ignorant because for some reason it's literally impossible for rational people to just disagree about something and discuss it."
Do you have any intention of actually answering the question, or is it all just going to be "you're so ignorant, you don't understand"?
tldr: you only want to understand things you already understand.
"I'm really clever and have thought through my decision really carefully so anyone who disagrees with that decision must be really ignorant because for some reason it's literally impossible for rational people to just disagree about something and discuss it."
your misplaced confidence in assumptions and ignorance is literally what I'm telling you to throw away.
as I stated at least three times in the previous comment, you can disagree with whatever you want.
voting is democratic, you get to vote for whoever you want to.
in the specific situation we're talking about, voting against Harris is a selfish and short-sighted toddler terror tactic as espoused by you and others in this thread.
I answered all of your questions fully and with context.
which one do you need more clarification on?
Same ones as before.
Why is denying Kamala our vote a "toddler terror tactic" and not just the normal democratic process of exchanging votes for policy changes?
In what way do we democratically influence parties to shift policy other than ransoming our votes?
If we vote anyway, then ask them to change policy, what incentive do they have to do so, since they already have our vote?
If we vote anyway, how do they know we've not voted because we agree with their genocide and so consider more arms?
(And, not a question, but a clarification - the ICC have a case against Israel for genocide. Are you seriously suggesting that an active arrest warrant for genocide doesn't change anything about this situation to any meaningful extent?)
"Same ones as before."
proceeds to ask different questions.
"Why is denying Kamala our vote a "toddler terror tactic" and not just the normal democratic process of exchanging votes for policy changes?"
because according to your beliefs, you have no reason not to vote for Harris except that you want people to pay attention to you.
If you are against genocide, not voting for Harris will not achieve what you want.
you are still not understanding that the US does not have the power over the Palestinian genocide you believe they have.
you voting for Harris does not mean Netanyahu or the IDF stops bombing Palestine, especially with her her primary opponent so supportive of Israel.
again, as I mentioned earlier you are shooting yourself in the foot with this "strategic tantrum".
"In what way do we democratically influence parties to shift policy other than ransoming our votes?"
protests. letters to senators and other politicians. political parties and go talk to people in the real world.
actions make a difference.
"If we vote anyway, then ask them to change policy, what incentive do they have to do so, since they already have our vote?"
because people matter. and politicians are often influenced by popular actions.
Even if they don't listen, would you rather have Harris in the White House or Trump?
again, you think that all of these issues are the same issue.
they are not at all.
The presidential election is completely separate from how you feel about Palestine.
you can protest the Palestinian genocide and vote for Harris because those are two separate events.
vote for progressive policy and fight against the oppression of the Palestinian people.
you assert you can only believe in everything or nothing.
this is a false dichotomy
"And, not a question, but a clarification - the ICC have a case against Israel for genocide. Are you seriously suggesting that an active arrest warrant for genocide doesn't change anything about this situation to any meaningful extent?)"
this is going to shock you, but this is a question.
also no.
also a discrete event.
try to unstick your mind.
everything is connected, but not everything is the same.
Yes. I want the Democrats to pay attention to me and change their policy. I'm asking why that is not the normal function of democracy.
Still at it then? This is why I gave you the paper. Me disagreeing with you about a conclusion is not equivalent to me not understanding. Whether America can influence Israel in this matter is not an established fact like the shape of the earth or 2+2=4. It's an opinion. People disagreeing with you haven't failed to understand something, they disagree.
And why would politicians take any notice if we're going to vote for them anyway?
Yes, because they think they'll lose/gain votes. But your advice has us eliminate that motive. They now can be assured of our votes no matter what policies they propose or implement.
False dichotomy. I'd rather have Harris with a stricter policy on arms sales to Israel. I believe that's achievable. That you don't is not a fact, it's an opinion, I disagree with it, I don't fail to understand it. Really, if you can't grasp the basic distinction between theories and the facts on which they're based then I don't know how we can proceed.
"I want the Democrats to pay attention to me and change their policy"
terrorizing the civil rights of others and threats against society isn't going to give you the attention you want from who you want to pay attention.
"i'm asking why that is not the normal function of democracy."
because selfishness and terror threats lose trust. if you're willing to sacrifice the rights of everybody else to get what you want, your vote can't be trusted.
"They now can be assured of our votes no matter what policies they propose or implement."
nobody can be assured of you vote because selfishness and terror threats are inherently untrustworthy. If you're willing to sacrifice the rights of everybody else to get what you want, your vote can't be trusted.
"False dichotomy"
I used this word correctly, you copied it and used it for an incorrect example.
Harris or Trump The 2024 US presidential election is not a false dichotomy.
One of those two is going to win the presidential election.
that is an actual dichotomy.
"Really, if you can't grasp the basic distinction between theories and the facts on which they're based then I don't know how we can proceed."
you sure don't.
I understand the difference vetween theory and practice, you are conflating them as you have mistaken each tree for a forest.
You're stuck in a fish bowl.
Have a read of this paper by David Christensen (Chair of Epistemology at Brown University). https://philarchive.org/archive/CHRDQA
It's s good overview of the issue we're stuck on here. You're taking a strict 'Steadfast' position that since you've reasoned P, anyone reasoning not-P must be either of lower epistemic status, or have reasoned poorly. But as Christensen shows, most epistemologists recognise that this position is flawed (p.2).
Anyway, have a read, if you feel so inclined. See if any of it makes sense to you, or maybe opens up some epistemological issues you perhaps hadn't considered.
this is literally your problem.
you only believe in things you already believe.
My beliefs are based on existing evidence and rational analysis.
when I am confronted with new information, I add that into my belief system and my belief system changes accordingly.
your belief system is "nuh uh, I never heard that before so how real can it be?"
your linked paper is a more conplicated description of exactly what I have been describing your problem as.
you are trying to pretend that words simply mean other words.
you are selfish.
you can agree or disagree, it doesn't change the selfishness of taking away others rights to advance your own sense of self-worth.
The democratic party advances social policy that benefits society at large and affords more rights to everyone.
your toddler terror tantrum threat is that you'll take away the rights of others if they won't make you feel good.
that is selfish by definition.
it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with anybody else, taking away the rights of others unless they applaud your flawed thought experiments is selfish.
freedom to disagree is not the issue.
comfortably ensconced in the illogical feedback loop of your own belief system, you are acting selfishly.
You've misunderstood the paper
It's not about information. The argument is about disagreement among epistemic peers. We all have the same information. You've not provided any information I didn't already know. I've not provided any information you didn't already know. We've been exchanging theories, not information.
The paper is about the status of disagreement in conclusions based on the same information.
As I said in my other comment, if you really can't tell the difference between a theory and the facts on which it is based, then we can't possibly have a rational discussion since rational discussion is premised entirely on that distinction.
We don't discuss facts, we demonstrate them by the presentation of evidence. We discuss theories drawn from those facts.
"You've misunderstood the paper."
I'm sure you wish I had.
repeatedly failing to gaslight me must be very frustrating for you.
"We've been exchanging theories, not information."
whole information not understanding as of limited of importance that invalidate coherent a information prior pieces accurately does of the.
or, rephrased:
prior limited understanding of pieces of information does not invalidate the importance or accuracy of that information as a coherent whole.
We are exchanging information, whether you recognize it or not.
Well, if you consider your conclusions to be facts, not theories then what are you doing here? This is a forum for discussing the item in the OP. You can't discuss facts, they're merely presented. I fear you have this place confused with a schoolroom. If you want to present facts, write a textbook.
"if you consider your conclusions to be facts..."
I do not. You're still making incorrect assumptions to draw necessarily false conclusions.
"This is a forum for discussing the item in the OP."
there you go! look at you, speeding up to 5th on the final lap.
"I fear you have this place confused with a schoolroom."
I am not surprised to hear that you are afraid of learning.
I think supporting/funding genocide shouldn't be democratic party policy, it would suit more on far-right. But reality is different. Even after thousands of posts, emails to representatives, cases in court, protests in campuses and rallies. Democrats are eager to support/fund a genocide.
Democratic party has become a far-right party.
incorrect.
democrats are protesting Palestine.
not by writing lazy memes, but by writing the letters, going out in marches and getting arrested like you're talking about.
"I think supporting/funding genocide shouldn't be democratic party policy"
meither do democrats.
"Democrats are eager to support/fund a genocide."
completely incorrect:
you know what's been consistent for 70 years? despite which party was in power, Israel, a country established specifically to avoid further genocide, was supported with US financial help and military aid.
you still believe the fiction that there are two political parties and that's how politics works, so you're operating off that principle.
that is a flawed premise, and so your conclusions are foolishly and falsely diametric.
"Democratic party has become a far-right party."
this is idiotic.
democrats, especially for the past 4 years, have successfully taken the presidency away from Trump, who actually enacted far-right policies. this is extremely significant and the presidency was taken forcefully away from Trump because of the democratic party promising and then delivering progressive change.
biden and the democrats have also furthered every significant progressive policy more than any President in recent years, certainly more than I would have guessed - civil rights from minorities, legal and social funding for minorities, climate change, on and on to include every major progressive policy; democrats are pro-choice, pro- change, none of these are far right positions.
It's great that the half a century plus old Palestinian genocide you just found out about outrages you, but the world hasn't suddenly become black and white because of a piece of knowledge that is new to you.
third party voters are as valid a democratic electorate as the hardline conservative and the hard line liberal ever were.
people get to vote who they want to vote for.
you should find out which policies you actually believe in and vote according to your beliefs.
do you believe in social consciousness? do you believe in personal autonomy? do you believe in taxing the rich? do you believe in social services? do you believe in combating climate change? sustainable technology? Harris has already made material strides in these progressive positions while the other major candidate has actively worked against those policies.
there are two major candidates, one of them is going to win.
you, as a voter, are responsible for which one wins either way.