this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2024
168 points (95.7% liked)

Europe

1554 readers
532 users here now

News and information from Europe 🇪🇺

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in !yurop@lemm.ee. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)

(This list may get expanded when necessary.)

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to the mods: @federalreverse@feddit.org, @poVoq@slrpnk.net, or @anzo@programming.dev.

founded 4 months ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] tal@lemmy.today 34 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

“There is a long tradition of conservative circles fretting about international influences on the German languages,” said Stefanowitsch. “It used to be French, and now it’s mainly English”.

Heh.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

--James Nicoll

However, guidelines issued by the body regulating the use of Standard High German orthography have clarified that the use of the punctuation mark colloquially known as the Deppenapostroph (“idiot’s apostrophe”) has become so widespread that it is permissible – as long as it separates the genitive ‘s’ within a proper name.

Hmm.

So how do they deal with the more-complex cases?

https://www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/whats-the-rule-for-doing-a-possessive-after-the-word-s/

Singular nouns ending in S

Rule 1: In general, you form a possessive singular noun (both proper and common) by adding an apostrophe and the letter S to the end of the word.

  • the flower’s petals

  • Riley’s car

That’s simple enough. It’s when the car belongs to a person named Chris, or we’re talking about the petals of a crocus that the rules get blurry. Most experts and guides say you should add an apostrophe and an S to both proper and common nouns to make them possessive even when they end in S. So, using the examples above, it would be:

* Chris’s car

  • the crocus’s petals 

Not everyone agrees with this method, however, and some, such as the Associated Press Stylebook, nod in favor of adding only an apostrophe to make a proper noun possessive, such as:

  • Chris’ car

  • Dickens’ novels

To add even more confusion, AP Style also has an exception if the word following the possessive starts with an S, stating that in those cases only the apostrophe should be added. So it would be:

  • Texas’s people

Texas’ streams 

In 2019, the AP raised quite the ruckus when they tweeted that they were considering adding an S after the apostrophe for singular proper nouns, as in Mavis Staples’s album or Martha Reeves’s concert. To date, no changes have been made, but as you can see, it’s an ever-evolving, highly volatile topic. 

Plural nouns ending in S

Rule 2: Plural nouns, on the other hand, generally don’t get an extra S, just an apostrophe. Most experts suggest you form the plural form of the word first, then add the apostrophe.

For example: 

  • the Joneses’ house 

  • the classes’ rules

Most say possessive words should generally read as you would speak them. 

The one-syllable rule

When it comes to historical proper names or those found in the Bible, however, there is another rule many choose to follow.

Rule 3: According to some, those words with two or more syllables typically just get an apostrophe after the final S, while one-syllable words getting both an apostrophe and an S.

For example:

  • Jesus’ teachings

  • Zeus’s temper

Some people apply it to more recent names as well, such as Dr. Seuss’s writings or Kenny Rogers’ songs, while others believe they all should also get an additional S. 

Singular nouns in plural form

Rule 4: When it comes to singular nouns that are plural words, they typically just get the apostrophe.

For example, the Beatles is a singular noun, but it’s in the form of a plural word. So, it would be:

  • The Beatles’ album

For the sake of …

Rule 5: Whether a noun ends in an S or not, if it’s followed by the word sake, most say it just gets an apostrophe.

For example:

  • for goodness’ sake

  • for conscience’ sake 

  • for appearance’ sake

Others, such as the Chicago Manual of Style, say if the word before sake ends in an S, then it should just get an apostrophe. Others should get an apostrophe and an S. So, it would be:

  • for goodness’ sake

  • for conscience’s sake 

  • for appearance’s sake

Like, there's a whole rabbit hole to go down there.

[–] wieson 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In German it would be like:

Franks Haus.

Franz' Haus.

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg 6 points 1 month ago

A way without the apostrophe could also be „Franzens Haus“ (but that’s out of style since a few decades)

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

While you're right that there is a rabbit hole to go down, we just didn't have a solution for this so far.
"Matthias' car" translates as "Matthias Auto", which could also be a new Disney character.

The problem is much less frequent in German, though, because our plurals don't generally end with a 's'.

[–] federalreverse 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

What? That's completely untrue! Any time, the word ends on an s sound, the apostrophe moves to [the end of the word].

Matthias's car (or alternatively, Matthias' car) is Matthias' Auto.

Assuming the final e is not pronounced, Alice's car becomes Alice' Auto. Alternatively, it can be Alices Auto if the final e is pronounced.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Interestingly, the Duden also spits out Matthias' as possible genitive: https://www.duden.de/deklination/substantive/Matthias_Vorname
But I was then unsure, if they had already integrated the Deppenapostroph-rule.

I wouldn't know having seen an apostrophe in genitive in a formal text before, but no idea. Maybe there's regional differences. Would explain why Duden lists both.


Original German comment:

Interessanterweise hat der Duden auch Matthias' als möglichen Genitiv ausgespuckt: https://www.duden.de/deklination/substantive/Matthias_Vorname
Aber ich war mir dann unsicher, ob die schon direkt die Deppenapostroph-Regel aufgenommen hatten.

Ich wüsste nicht, dass ich schonmal einen Apostroph beim Genitiv in einem formalen Text gesehen hätte, aber ja, kein Plan. Vielleicht gibt's da auch regionale Unterschiede. Würde erklären, warum der Duden beides listet...

[–] federalreverse 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

(Ftr: This is an English-language community.)

But Duden listing Matthias as a possible genitive is wild. It seems they just list it in a weird way, because Jeremia is certainly not a reasonable genitive of Jeremia:

duden.de: Jeremia | genitive: Jeremia, Jeremias

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Hmm, I think Jeremia is an irregular case, due to it mostly being a biblical name and I think in biblical texts, they write it as "des Jeremia". No idea, if that was just en vogue when the bible got translated or what the reason is for that.

But the Duden describes the general rule of thumb for nouns ending in 's' (or similar sounds) by extending them with "-es": https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/sprachratgeber/Genitiv-auf-s-oder-es

But "des Matthiases" just sounds archaic.
They also list "des Hans" as the only possible genitive: https://www.duden.de/deklination/substantive/Hans_Mann
So, maybe these are special cases, too...