this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2024
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[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

The left won a plurality, the right is in charge.

This is the counterargument to those who want multiparty democracy.

[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 64 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is a counter argument to having a constitution that allows the president to do what Macron did. There are basically nothing stopping him besides tradition and good will.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 41 points 2 months ago

If I had £1 for every time the right had a mysterious unfair advantage in a democratic system, I'd buy myself a politician

[–] cmder@lemmy.world 38 points 2 months ago

Nah nothing to do with multiparty, the problem is with the fith republic of France giving too much power to the president.

[–] friendlymessage 19 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The prime minister of France is not an elected position but appointed by the president. This has nothing to do with multiparty democracy.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What's the point of holding elections if the winner is an appointed position?

[–] friendlymessage 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What? Not all positions are elected, in no system. Or when did you vote for secretary of state in the US?

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Not all positions, but the head of government is elected in the US.

And if voters can't choose the head of government, what are they voting for?

[–] SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

France has a Head of State, the President, and a Head of Government, the Prime Minister. The PM is appointed by the President. The President is the head of the Executive branch, and the PM is the head of the Legislative branch.
From the Wiki:

The political system of France consists of an executive branch, a legislative branch, and a judicial branch. Executive power is exercised by the president of the republic and the Government. The Government consists of the prime minister and ministers. The prime minister is appointed by the president, and is responsible to Parliament. The government, including the prime minister, can be revoked by the National Assembly, the lower house of Parliament, through a motion of no-confidence; this ensures that the prime minister is practically always supported by a majority in the lower house (which, on most topics, has prominence over the upper house).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_France

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Right. So like I said, voters cannot choose the head of government.

[–] SturgiesYrFase@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

It's a bit more complicated than what you're saying, but sure.

[–] Jumi@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Yes, everyone votes for their favorite party and then Macron decides.

[–] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Technically the left didn't win the majority of seat in the parliament. They have a relative majority as in they are the biggest group in parliament by a small margin but they don't have the majority needed to make a stable government.

A majority vote from the parliament can oust the PM and his government.

If you take all the right wing parties, they hold the majority of seats (2/3rd). A left leaning government would last 48 hours, so in spite of french leftists telling everyone they "won", they didn't.

Our electoral system is very flawed though and the current make up of the parliament is not representative of what people want, there are much better voting system for plurality based political system that could be implemented.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's my point. In a multiparty system, it's rare for a party to win a majority. So someone can win even though the majority prefers a different person.

For example, suppose there are three candidates A,B, and C. It's possible for 60% to prefer A over B, 60% to prefer B over C, and 60% to prefer C over A. No matter who wins, a majority agrees that they are worse than another candidate.

[–] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

There are other voting system than first past the post like Condorcet, coda, etc.. nothing is a absolutely perfect but some system will be closer.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

None of those can avoid the situation I described above where a majority oppose the winner.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 1 points 2 months ago (4 children)

In every country the biggest party would be the one that would at least get a first shot at forming a government.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

And if the leader of the second biggest party would rather work with the third biggest party?

Then the biggest party could well remain out of government, because someone decided that a different coalition would form the government.

The virtue of a two party popular vote is that once the votes are counted there is a clear winner determined by the voters, and nobody can change the winner behind the scenes.

[–] friendlymessage 4 points 2 months ago

As long as the coalition represents the majority, I don't see why the largest party needs to be part of the government. The largest party doesn't represent the will of the people by itself, otherwise they would have a majority.

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yes, that ends up happening sometimes, but the winner will at least be allowed to try.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Coalition building happens in a two party system, too. The difference is that it happens before the election, not after. That way the voters, not the coalition builders, get the final say.

[–] friendlymessage 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In a two party system the power balance within the coalition is decided behind closed doors and the voters have no say in it

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's true, but they have complete control of who wins the election.

[–] friendlymessage 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Two choices is not complete control

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The winner of the election reflects the will of the majority of voters. That's the most control you can get in a democracy.

[–] friendlymessage 1 points 2 months ago

Lol, sure it does

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 1 points 2 months ago

They did. They proposed a candidate and she wasn't accepted.

[–] friendlymessage 4 points 2 months ago

Counter examples exist. Willy Brandt was social-democratic German chancellor in a coalition with the liberals while the conservatives were the biggest party in parliament. The conservatives could only watch.

Also recent state elections in Thuringia, the fascist AfD is the biggest party but nobody wants to work with them, so they don't get a chance to form a government.

What's important in both cases: the majority of voters want it that way. They wanted a social-democratic+liberal government under Willy Brandt and there is a clear majority in Thuringia that don't want the AfD to govern. In both cases it's more democratic to not let the biggest party govern.

[–] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] magikmw@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Check Poland's last parliamentary election.

[–] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The United Right alliance placed first for the third straight election and won a plurality of seats but fell short of a Sejm majority. The opposition, consisting of the Civic Coalition, Third Way, and The Left, achieved a combined total vote of 54%, managing to form a majority coalition government.

So exactly the opposite of what you said.

The party with the largest number or seat didn't get to make a government and the largest coalition who managed to get a majority of seats did.

[–] magikmw@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They did get thay opportunity from the president. The prime minister didn't get a vote of confidence after a month of trying to pull a majority together. But they did get a chance, unlike french left.

[–] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago

Oh so a right wing president tried to push a right wing PM against a majority left leaning parliament disregarding the vote result and failed ?

You have weird notions of what makes good governance.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

*looks at FPTP countries with two party systems* yeah, they are doing grand.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Italy and Israel are among the purest forms of multiparty democracy, and I'll take any FPTP government over those two.

[–] atro_city@fedia.io 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You think Italy's and Israel's problems are due to their form of democracy? 🤣🤣🤣

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

In part, yes. It gives extremists more voice in government then they deserve.