It isn't some kind of organization dedicated to anti-cult endeavor, nor even a band dedicated to anything other than making music. That's it. That's the entirety of what linkin park is. They're an amazing fucking band that makes amazing fucking music.

Nothing about making music is predicated on the beliefs of the members unless they're making music about those beliefs, and even then it doesn't mean they have to do it all the time.

Are we going to flip out on Garth Brooks and Chance the rapper now? Both of them are openly supporters of a religion that has caused or condoned wars, genocide, and even today actively seek to crush the rights of other people. Christianity is just a big cult that demands loyalty and money and strict adherence to the rules of whichever sect of the cult you belong to, and nobody is up their ass for the actions of the rest of their religion.

Or is it only the cults we like that get a pass? Is that what it is? Sammy Davis Jr is cool, what with being a Satanist and jewish (at the same time, which is actually pretty damn cool), and Reba Macentire gets a pass because reasons, but not this woman that grew up in a cult we don't like as much?

It's bullshit. It's empty headed drek.

Now, if Armstrong gets up on stage and starts trying to convert people that didn't show up for that, that's a different issue. If she starts writing songs with LP that tear down what they've always claimed to believe, that's a different issue.

I simply do not give a fuck about what fiction a person believes in. It has nothing to do with the music unless they make it about that.

Anyone wanna tear Scientology down? Go for it! It's a giant scam as well as a cult. Tear down all of them as far as I'm concerned. Make it illegal, remove all non profit status from all of the brain washing cults that get called religion. But that's still a separate issue from some band making music.

It's the old art vs artist argument, only in this case, all the artist did was get raised in a disliked religion, and then take part in a truly fucking stupid show of support for a fellow church member. That's it. That's all she has done, unless there's something I'm missing that she's been accused of personally doing? Is there, was she actively involved in any of the bullshit the cult did? Did she know about it happening at the time at all?

It's a fucking nothing burger, and if anyone tried saying the same shit about someone that was wiccan, or muslim, or christian that did the exact same thing, it would be a shitstorm against the person trying to do so.

Shit, nobody can even point to her doing anything after she discovered the details of the shitstain to support him.

That's the fucking point, it's a witch hunt.

[+] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world -6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

See, by your logic, it's okay if I am a anti-semite for example, just quietly.

So long as I'm only funding and supporting my Anton Jew crusade off stage and off screen, and never writing a song that says "kill the Jews", it's okay to take all my money from those concerts and funnel it into my organization that manufactures gas chambers "just in case".

A quiet tolerance of racism, bigotry, and abuse, leads to its proliferation. Period.

It's not a witch hunt. Her organization is directly responsible for funding hate and attacks on innocent people. The money she earns from the band will fund this. It is perfectly reasonable to object to her being able to jump onto this band's good reputation and use it to fund such efforts.

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

This is honestly the worst-faith arguing I've seen in a looong time. To the point that it's actually funny when I've read it a couple times

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

No, I'm saying that if every single member of a group is responsible for the worst actions of their religion, then every Catholic, Muslim, baptist, jew, and any sect of Christianity is just as bad.

Singling Armstrong out and ignoring the rest is bullshit.

There is no religion on this earth, with the possible exception of Jains, that isn't currently doing absolutely horrible shit.

And if you take into account past actions, anyone that's christian supports genocide just by being a member of their local church.

I'm not saying Scientology is some kind of good thing, it isn't.

I'm saying that all over the world, there are people that belong to religions that are horrible, but aren't themselves. There's people all over the world that go about their daily lives following their religion that they were raised in, but we're not putting the weight of someone else's actions on their shoulders.

But somehow, because this is scientology, she doesn't get that pass.

Why? Why is she any different from Garth Brooks being an active, practicing Christian? A religion responsible for the current wave of hate against LGBTQ people everywhere. There are musicians that are muslims, and I don't see anyone up in arms about that, and there are islamic groups right now commiting atrocities in multiple places.

Like it or not, there are entire generations of people raised in scientology that are no better or worse than christians or any other religion you pick.

So, why this woman? Why is she suddenly now responsible for all of it? Didn't see anyone raising hell about her for being the singer in her previous band. No, it's a bunch of butthurt children attacking her because it's this band, looking for any damn excuse to be shitty to other people.

And let's not forget that this all started up when one of Masterson's victims raised hell at her. Which is understandable, what with the horror she went through herself. But Armstrong? She wasn't one of the people writing letters after seeing the evidence, she isn't on that list. She abandoned that ship after the very early stages of the generic support from scientology. Unless anyone has any proof otherwise? I've yet to see any, and I've been looking today.

Let me say it again. If she's somehow evil for being a scientologist, then every single person in any religion (and they're all made up craziness) is evil for staying a member of their religion. If anyone of any older religion is given the benefit of the doubt at all, then she should have that same benefit given.

Nobody has yet to bring up anything other than her still being a scientologist to condemn her actions. I've not seen any evidence of wrongdoing that she did. To the contrary, up until this explosion, nobody had much of anything to say about her at all, and Dead Sara wasn't exactly an unheard of band. They just dropped an album three years ago, nobody was making accusations of anything then, nobody was on the warpath about her fronting a different band.

So, are we now going to start going after every religion? I'm fine with that, hold every single member of every religion responsible for the actions of the rest. It's a bad idea, but at least it's consistent.

[–] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world -4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Oh, so Scientology is a religion and not a cult, that's your stance?

And she has the right to believe in her cult and inflict their will on others?

You are comparing a top down controlled cult doing active harm to a diaspora of various religions with various levels of commitment, expression, and potential harm.

Reductio ad Adsurdum is your fallacy. A cult is not a religion, and you are comparing an actively harmful thing, lime thumbscrews, to the broad conceptual harm of an entire concept, like screws themself.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

No, I'm saying that every religion is a cult. The only difference is whether or not people like them. They all engage I fuckery of the highest order. Catholicism is still top down cult, they just have numbers and history. A history of atrocities on a much greater scale than anything scientology has managed to achieve. It hasn't even been fifty years that gay people were even considered anything but scum to the Catholic church. It hasn't even been twenty since they were covering up child sexual abuse actively, and with knowledge it was going to keep happening if they didn't stop it.

I'm saying that in the face of everything any given religion has done, none of them deserve a break for individuals unless all of them do.

I'm saying that none of the people except the victim of Masterson's that made the public blame towards Armstrong were giving two shits about her. I haven't seen anyone I'm this thread that's said anything about scientology before this came along.

I'm saying that that's bullshit. I'm saying that it's a bunch of whiny little piss babies jumping into drama they didn't give a fuck about two weeks ago.

I'm saying that a witch hunt on the basis of a cult or religion is bullshit when there's no difference in them. Jainism, and maybe wicca have managed to not commit atrocities the last hundred years. And you'd likely find members of either of those that are bigger assholes than Armstrong has ever been

And, again, where were the complaints when she was fronting a different band? Nowhere. It's a bunch of piss babies whining because it's a bigger band, and that's bullshit. Either she was a monster a month ago, or she wasn't. If she was, then where were the attacks then?

It's hypocrisy. It's empty minded bullshit.

Now, to state it again, IDGAF about scientology. Tear it down, ban it, IDGAF if they're all thrown in jail. Just don't pretend they're worse than any other big religious cult. And, unless we're gong to go back thousands of years to some kind of ultra primitive version of animism, every fucking religion was a cult at some point. All the big ones operate as such, the monotheistic organized ones are just the worst about it.

[–] Kerriganindrag@lemy.lol 1 points 3 days ago

Preach big daddy!

[–] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world -2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

This insane edgelord "all religion is bad so shut up about it" shit.

There a literally billions of Muslims in the world. They are not all following their cults orders in lockstep, doing exactly what is said, holding one belief.

You are vastly oversimplifying and grouping Sunni and Shia and Catholic and Protestant and Episcopalian and Jewish and Hindu and Sikh and Buddhist and Shinto all together.

None of those groups move as one within their faith. None. Scientology does. Because Scientology is not "lol religion is the opitate of the masses" cult, Scientology is a LITERAL "we keep people imprisoned and torture them routinely and steal all our members income while we take their children from them" kind of literal cult. Not colloquial. Not from a certain point of view. This is their entire structure.

The "gospel of prosperity" is almost a cult, arguably a cult of personality, but these people a literally physically free to do anything they want. They are manipulated into donating. Scientologists are blackmailed and, again, LITERALLY imprisoned within the groups of the groups facilities.

One, is a "proverbial" cult, because it is manipulating the weak minded and is very sad and wrong too. One is a LITERAL cult. And these two things can both be bad while one can be CLEARLY more objectionable than the other.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

"we keep people imprisoned and torture them routinely

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9qgq919yl5o

Anyone that does not immediately renounce the religion is no longer eligible for benefit of the doubt, even if they were raised in the religion, even if they tether reject part of the beliefs.

Hate to break it to you, but if scientology is doing this level of horror to people in the name of their beliefs, it hasn't made the news recently.

https://theconversation.com/violent-buddhist-extremists-are-targeting-muslims-in-sri-lanka-92951

Haven't seen any bombings by scientology yet, though I wouldn't be surprised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-64658648

But, no true Christian would do such a thing.

If you're arguing that scientology is somehow worse than any of that, I would say malarkey.

As nasty as scientology can get, as much as they need to be shut down, they aren't even close you the kind of insanity of any of that.

I don't care what word you want to apply to it. Cult, religion, idgaf. Call it whatever you want. But whatever you want to label things, I object just as much to literal terrorism and murder, no matter who does it.

You know who hasn't done anything like any of this? Emily Armstrong. The worst thing she's done is show up in court with a bunch of other brainwashed members of the group. That's it.

If she is responsible for things she didn't do, just because someone in the same organization did them, then everyone is responsible for the acts of the worst of their organization.

Seriously, how does nobody have anything in the way of proof she did anything illegal, dangerous, or even bad? Everyone is all whiny about her still being associated with scientology, like she's some kind of ringleader instead of someone that's stuck just as much because "we keep people imprisoned and torture them routinely and steal all our members income while we take their children from them". If the cult is that bad, why is she expected to be the one to take a stand?

It's bullshit. And that's the point. I genuinely do not give a stinking shit what kind of semantics you want to fuck with. You do you, I'm done with that part of things because it has never been the point.

You got anything, any shred of proof that Emily Armstrong did any of the illegal acts that scientology has carried out? Because, again, I've gone looking, and there's jack shit online. If anything, she's just another victim of scientology via her parents. I get that the lady that masterson assaulted gets a pass for ranting at the wrong person. She gets that after what she went through. But nobody in this entire thread, nor in the YouTube comments, or on any of the social media platforms currently swamped by people that did not give a flying fuck about scientology two weeks ago have managed to dig up anything Armstrong has done other than sit in a courtroom.

That's it. That's her crime.

[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I read this whole thread, and started out kinda disagreeing with you, but I actually agree with you now. You make some very good points. Nobody is bringing this same energy to artists that are openly preaching for their own cults.

I'm not really a huge LP fan so I wasn't going to listen to them too much anyways, but this whole thing is blown way out of proportion. I guess I can still somewhat understand people just being mad that they kept the name. Really should've rebranded, in my opinion, because they aren't the same band. But, as long as she isn't preaching Scientology in LP lyrics, people that care are mostly all hypocrites.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

I appreciate it.

And I mostly agree, it isn't really the same band. Can't say I object to the name staying the same since it was never "Chester's band, Linkin Park". It was a group effort, and as much as I love Chester, he was only part of what made them what they were.

As it stands now, there's only one member from the original linkin park lineup not involved, and it seems like he's just done with music entirely, at least as a performer.

If Shinoda had just hired on an entire new group, and used the name, I'd be annoyed. Wouldn't necessarily reject it, but wouldn't be standing in line for the new album either.

And it isn't like there isn't plenty of bands that have moved forward with a band after losing a vocalist, while keeping the original name.

But, yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to respond a lot. Thanks :)