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What a terrible article. What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed? People are saying it’s a claim by the IDF but it’s not even attributed to them. From reading the article I have no idea who is making this claim or how it is supported. That’s not how journalism works.
So much angst about unreliable sources here, but we’re letting this fly?
Edit: Here is a better summary of the available source information. It is coming from the IDF, but they haven’t really said much other than it was obvious to them Hamas was the culprit. We’ll have to see what further information they release.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-hostages-hersh-netanyahu-29496f50a9b1740bd3905035ffd23052
They released an autopsy. What the frack do people want?
A link to it? Lol
Let's be real, if you had a link to the autopsy you wouldn't change your mind. You haven't decided your beliefs based upon evidence; why would you change them based on it?
Reuters
I think you’re arguing with a person in your imagination more than with me.
What exactly do you think I won’t change my mind on? That the article posted was of poor quality? If so, that’s true. It should have presented the available evidence clearly and indicated its sourcing. I am interested in additional information, but it’s not relevant to my original assessment.
That means you're not interested in additional information. Did you look at the quote in the Reuter's article?
I read the article. But it’s a separate article so it has little bearing on the quality of the one OP posted here. How do you feel it’s relevant?
You asked this question. The article directly answers it. Hamas killed those hostages.
They were 65 feet down in a Hamas tunnel. What other evidence could you possibly need to know Hamas killed these hostages?
There are a lot of ways people can die in a tunnel in war. Friendly fire, suffocation, starvation, disease, tunnel collapse… the list goes on. Execution is a very specific way to die, and it’s extremely convenient to IDF’s narrative about the conflict, and it seems counter to Hamas’s interests to throw away their main bargaining chip. It’s not that I don’t believe that’s what happened, but the minimal details presented here don’t tell a complete story and weren’t even traceable back to a specific source. I’m just looking for a little more detail to fully understand what happened.
And this is assuming the bodies were found where they died. It’s also possible they died elsewhere and were being stored here for use in negotiations. We just don’t know much and unfortunately, will need to depend on untrustworthy sources to find out more.
Do we have any source aside from the IDF?
Because already where they were supposedly found is based on what the IDF says. And we know that the IDF has been lying repeatedly throughout this war. We know that IDF soldiers have killed Israeli hostages before. We know about the Hannibal doctrin that dictates the IDF killing their own soldiers to prevent them from being captured alive. And the current political situation in Israel has become extremely critical of the IDFs failures to secure the hostages. So the IDF has an even greater incentive to downplay any possible responsibility.
Until we have the results of a comprehensive investigation by a non IDF party, there is a lot more evidence we need to know before forming a judgement.
We know Hamas and regular Gazans lie even more than the IDF.
Greater incentive? Hamas are terrorists. They follow zero international laws. Hamas has no incentive whatsoever to be honest. We know about their constantz irrefutable war crimes, every time they go out without uniforms (always), hiding among civilians (the more the better!), as if that's not a bigger war crime than anything the IDF has been accused of, using entire cities as human shields.
You asked, what more evidence would be needed. I laid it out. In regards to "hiding among civillians" i would like to ask you, whether you will apply that same condemnation to IDF, whose Headquarters are in the center of TelAviv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya
Are they hiding the IDF headquarters among civilians? No. Did they sneak in at night and build it under colleges and apartment buildings? No. Everyone knows right where it is. The people going in and out are uniformed soldiers, under color of a legitamate country.
This is a stunningly idiotic comparison. You weren't serious, forgot the /s, right?
If you were Hamas, would you situate yourself in a building out in the middle of nowhere (where is that in Gaza?) With a sign on it saying Hamas lives here, please don't bomb.?
So you acknowledge the fact that hamas uses human shields to protect its military assets?
I wouldn't be Hamas.
No one would be occupied, if they could help it. That's rather the point
Has Gaza made any effort to reject international terrorism and work towards a future with justice and basic human rights for its own people? No.
Every time they choose terrorism. They would rather be fed by the charity of gullible westerners than by their own hands, those are occupied with killing Jews. Don't invest in food infrastructure, spend all the Qatari money on rockets! Solid leadership from Hamas, popularly elected before Hamas (popularly) cancelled all future elections. Suggest otherwise and they'll (popularly) kill you! That's your freedom fighters.
That's why it was blockaded. It was occupied because of October 7. It is still occupied because of Hamas and it's ideological supporters and allies. Maybe we could have a few Gazan's step forward and point out the tunnels, point out the Hamas members, if they aren't happy with where Hamas has led Gaza and don't want martial law.
You could say the same about the IRA. And people did. It was tedious and irrelevant then, too Look, you're entitled to your opinion. Let's agree to disagree
Fair enough. History will judge.
E: Actually no it's not fair enough. Did the IRA not have a specter of legitimacy? I'm judging them both by how they treated their own people, and innocent people. I would likely give Palestine a pass for killing their oppressors if I thought that's what they were doing. Again, go over there and talk about women's rights for democratic values, and see if you don't get stoned to death for being an infidel. The IRA were at least decent people, morally defensible.
You can't help yourself, huh? Fine, have a ban
What?
Not sure about that. The Hamas health system seems to have been pretty accurate about casualty numbers so far and in the past (including when belatedly confirmed by the IDF). Whereas the IDF has been shown to lie quite a lot
Also: International Law? What does the ICJ have to say about that issue?
They're simply no way to reasonably say that the IDF lies more than Hamas, or that Hamas is more credible than the IDF. The IDF is the professional military apparatus for whom every Israeli citizens serves, building roads, stopping suicide bombers from entering the country, and all sorts of useful things. It has government oversight by democratically elected civilians.
Hamas literally lies about everything and encourages a culture where hurling false accusations at the infidels is a fanatical duty, the more sensational the better. Qatari media will run the stories. Guardian will repeat them without scrutiny, and internet know nothings will do the rest. World's respectable media: silent, as they won't run stories based on TikTok memes.
Yeah, the Palestinian medical system keeps a pretty good account of dead bodies. That's about the only thing it's good for. They are accomplices to constant lies about how those bodies piled up and who they are. All of them are kids. None of them are fighters. All of them were sniped in the head or blown up by Israel bombs. None of them were stoned to death by fellow Gazans for implying that Gaza should hold an election. Not one!
The ICJ hasn't ordered Israel to do anything Israel was not already doing. Read the orders yourself. At some point South Africa is going to have to prove up their reductive and self-cited claims in a courtroom and since their entire complaint is essentially based on Al Jazeera and Guardian articles that lack names, dates, or on the record sourcing, that's going to be a heavy lift! Israel is going to bring receipts. And when they find they did fuck up, they will have a reciept for the court marshals and indictments. When is the last time a Gazan fighter faced a court marshal, never? How many Gazans in jail (in Gaza) for war crimes, none? Because they give you money in exchange for doing war crimes, in Gaza. Israel at least has some people in prison. The ICJ cited Israel's continuing efforts to prosecute war criminals in its initial orders denying South Africa's request for affirmative relief. Gaza has followed how many provisos of the ICJs orders? Zero.
Keep drinking that koolaid, brother
Stop drinking whatever it is you're drinking dude...
Well, Hamas claimed it was the IDF.
Of course they did. Hamas are liars. They kill people all the time and blame Israel. Pretty much their only strategy.
IDF claims one thing, Hamas claims another. Doesn't seem like there's a good reason to believe one account over another although given your posts it doesn't sound like you require any validation of IDF claims. That's fine for you but other people will want more objective proof than that