abraxas

Except that nuclear isn't the only, or even the cheapest, alternative to fossil fuels.

I agree, I love the idea of a brain chip, but not if someone can change licensing terms on something that's INSTALLED in me.

It seems odd putting meat in the same category as bread.

In terms of pure health, there's not much out there better than most meats. Yes, beef is a bit lower than pork and chicken, but properly portioned (looking at most of us Americans) it has very few downsides.

Bread on the other hand can be one of the worst foods we can eat. Of course, it is still all about moderation.

EDIT: Why the reddit-like downvotes folks? There's really no cohesive argument that puts meat below bread healthwise in most situations. If you want to avoid meat, avoid meat. If you want to be morally opposed to anyone eating meat, so be it. Facts are still facts and misinformation isn't the right way to fight that battle.

junk science and fabricated propaganda… how?

Different discussion, and feel free to read my MANY other comments on this thread if you're interested in my take on that. I said that's how we see the vegan side. If you want to cover whether that opinion is accurate, my answer here is going to be RTFM in the other comments, sorry.

Besides the scientific consensus on the benefits of plant based diets on the environment, veganism is an ethical stance to stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings

That "scientific consensus" has tons of asterisks. The consensus is that reducing global meat intake would have an environmental impact in a vacuum. And I agree with that. And as long as it's not too many people "doing their part" by going vegan, go ahead. And as long as you don't think that's the ONLY thing you should be doing.

And no, veganism is not "an ethical stance to stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings", it's just not eating animal products. And here's how I can show that. If someone handed you a shotgun and said "this deer has to die; feel free to eat it. If you don't kill it, 5 more animals will starve to death" what would you do? Trolley problem. If your stance is actually stopping unnecessary harm, you kill the deer and you feast. You kill the deer because it saves lives, and you feast because at least the death served a purpose directly.

If you don't do those things, you're not doing what you can to "stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings". But if you DO do those things, you're not a vegan. Words have meanings, and vegan doesn't mean "stop unnecessary harm", it means "won't eat animal products at all costs".

The only science we need is to prove that plant based diets do that, and they do

I disagree. I think too much veganism, especially preachy veganism, costs more lives and causes more suffering. I see what overpopulation does every day, and I've seen many times how many animals die on a farm.

Also I’m definitely not pushing people away from veganism, I’ve been at this for a long time and the truth is you weren’t going to change your mind

No, I wasn't going to change my mind because I'm educated on this matter and have been dealing with smug vegans for a decade now. Unlike a lot of dupes you might talk to, I have a background in philosophy and ethics, as well as at least some knowledge about agriculture and how farming actually works. But my wife toyed with veganism until she got annoyed by someone not very much unlike you. It led her to stop. She un-quit red meat, which was a huge win to me.

But think about this. Anyone on the fence who reads this comment chain is going to see the preachy vegans overreaching with what arguments they have and come to the not-quite-true conclusion that NONE of what you're saying is accurate. Which is funny because we SHOULD still be trying to improve our overall relationship with food.

I’m just providing opposition to your points for everyone who reads this thread

Actually, quite the opposite. This all started because you insisted vegans aren't smug. Readers can come to their own conclusions. At this point, I'm convinced any non-vegan reader will agree that you came across similar to a JW.

You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten?

Yup. Animals that lived lives in the first place because they were going to be eaten. Why should anyone have an ethical problem with that? But honestly, I don't think it's just "were killed for them to be eaten" to you. I live in a deer population control zone. Hunters have a critical task of preventing deer overpopulation from devastating the area. Got any problems with the venison steak I had last week from deer that HAD to be killed?

Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.

More empathetic? Because I'm not an anti-natalist. I know those animals would not have been born if not farmed. This is not a vacuum choice between "cows die" and "cows live". It never was, and it never will be. I know that most of them live better lives and die easier than their non-domesticated counterparts. Ever watch a cat play with a mouse, slowly torturing it to death? My local farm (plants) have animals that do exactly that every day with the goal of killing off pest animals so they won't destroy the harvest (a single pest animal like a squirrel can destroy 40 or 50 tomatoes in an hour).

Let's go another way. Statistically, odds are pretty good that my death will be 100x worse than how a farm animal dies. So no, me being ok that death exists in our world is NOT a lack of empathy. You don't get to make up my morals for me. The way I see it, giving farm animals a peaceful life is the height of empathy... so I look at you (your words) "triggering some meat-eaters" and note that statistically many of the people you go out of your way to "trigger" are going to end up dying long and painful battles with cancer. My view of empathy? Give them just a LITTLE bit more bloody peace while they're alive.

Here's my empathy. I fight for animal right laws. I strongly supported the free range chicken law that just passed in my state. I reject unethical and inhumane ways of treating and killing animals. But I'm not uneducated. I know how farming works. I know how the delicate relationship between agriculture and horticulture, while not perfect, leads to less death and less environmental impact than EITHER side of those alone.

Vegans are letting some crayola-colored dream be the enemy of good. And it's nothing more than flat-earther, tinfoil, antivax gibberish to me. And I don't care as long as they leave people alone.

JW's would say the exact same thing to vegans. YOU think the issue is real, but all the rest of us see is you throwing around junk science and fabricated propaganda. Ultimately, you think you can force your morals on us because you think you're better than us... and think we have no right to do the same to you. That's where the "smug" part comes in. You know we've thought about the ethics. You know we might even be more educated in right-and-wrong than you are. But you don't care what our conclusions were as long as they differ from yours. You're infallible on that topic, are you?

Religion is a personal choice, but actions that harm others are not

You don't think what you're doing is harming people? Or is it that you don't care because your ethics are more valuable than others are? Proslytization hurts people. Which means preachy vegans hurt people.

You can call it preachy but that’s how things get better.

You're pushing people AWAY from veganism. I've been on a constant mission to improve my footprint, but every time I end up in an argument with a vegan I end up so exhausted by their zealous crap that I start questioning whether it's worth all the effort I put into MY part of the environment. It literally just makes me want to go out of my way and eat a steak, but that's not much better (but it is a little better) than what preachy vegans do.

I find vegans tend to have less empathy for their fellow man than we meat-eaters have for animals. It comes across as smug (and let's be honest, it's less insulting to call them smug).

Funny thing is that many of us feel the same way about vegans. We just want them to change and stop getting in our face like street preachers with what we consider to be flawed logic and more flawed ethical philosophy.

And the only way to do that is to keep standing up to vegans the same way we do JWs. It sucks because it's exhausting and we just want to be left alone.

I kinda hoped moving away from reddit would lead to less "you hold a different view than me so you must be an absolute idiot". I suppose I'm sorely disappointed.

...well, I did audit a culinary program when my wife took it. I have restauranteers in my family. I could probably survive in a small restaurant kitchen. But I guess I don't know how to cook :)

(fixed that part of my reply was to the wrong comment)

As for umami, it is the most stable flavor profile. You can get umami outside of meat, but like the protein you get out of meat, it requires a tremendous amount of effort and processing. And even then, my favorite way of making tofu involves just a little bit of bacon fat. And after I eat an incredible plate of falafal, I still want a nice cut of beef on the main plate.

I've probably eaten a well-above-average variety of meals from almost every culture (in some cases, blessed with the chance to eat in the country in question)... and yet, as enjoyable as the vegan ones are they are at best a shadow of themselves. The "not fake meat" ones are far better, but I rate food on quality. If "A+B" is simply a better meal than "A", then that speaks volumes. Most vegan or meatless meals are "A", and adding "B" elevates them. "B" usually happens to be an animal product.

Now IF I had some sort of moral or religious requirement to avoid meat, there are "A"s that would be good enough. I've had some Indian coworkers wow me with some of their meat-free food. But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing, so I have to admit that the best Samosa I've had was lamb and not veggie.

Most people who eat meat also eat some subset of vegetables and know they like/hate some other subset of vegetables.

The human body loves getting addicted to the unhealthy sugar carbs found in some plants, but our taste buds do tend to have a healthier long-term relationship with the umami balance you get more easily from meats and seafoods.

Delphi was pretty good. But it was also fairly persistent.