this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2025
49 points (96.2% liked)

Europe

5781 readers
738 users here now

News and information from Europe πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί

(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)

Rules (2024-08-30)

  1. This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
  2. No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
  3. Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
  4. No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
  5. Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
  6. If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
  7. Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in !yurop@lemm.ee. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
  8. Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
  9. No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
  10. Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.

(This list may get expanded as necessary.)

Posts that link to the following sources will be removed

Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com

(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)

Ban lengths, etc.

We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.

If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.

If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to any of the mods: @federalreverse@feddit.org, @poVoq@slrpnk.net, or @anzo@programming.dev.

founded 10 months ago
MODERATORS
federalreverse
poVoq@slrpnk.net
anzo@programming.dev
EuroMod
49
Rant about Wero (European PayPal competitor) (infosec.pub)
submitted 2 months ago by vollkorntomate@infosec.pub to c/europe
24 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

(I don't know if this community allows such rants or if there are other communities better suited for it. Please let me know!)

So, I wanted to replace PayPal with a service that's not owned by an American megacorp. Last year, Wero (wero-wallet.eu) launched with much media attention as a self-proclaimed competitor to PayPal owned and operated by European banks. I love the idea!

Now here's the issue: I can't use it. My bank (DKB in Germany) isn't a part of the European Payments Initiative, so I can't use the service. And so are many other banks across Europe.

I understand that the owning banks want to have a competitive advantage over one another, but what really bothers me is that a system intended to compete with PayPal isn't even designed to seriously compete. With PayPal, I can just link any bank account from any bank using my IBAN, but Wero doesn't support this. This is one of the reasons why Giropay (or Kwitt) in Germany didn't really catch on – it is too complex and too inaccessible for most potential users.

Not only does it actively keep me and many other Europeans from using Wero, it will also never become a global competitor to PayPal (that could generate additional income for the owning banks), because no non-European bank will likely ever be part of the EPI.

I would love to see a European service capable of seriously competing with American megacorps on a global level. But in my opinion, Wero just ain't one of them.

all 26 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I hope we someday get some proper payment solution like GNU Taler
Seems the GLS Bank is at it

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 10 points 2 months ago

The main issue I see with Wero is that it offers very little benefit and has pretty much the same privacy issues like paypal or credit cards.

In addition many (smaller) EU countries already have better local solutions in place for some years.

For me to consider such a system it would need to have substancial privacy benefits over existing solutions, and there pretty much only GNU Taler qualifies.

[–] marv99 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

An alternative was Paydirekt (Giropay) supported by my German bank. But while it worked quite fine, there where only very few supported sites (shops), for international payment it was more or less useless and end of last year 2024 the service has been discontinued.

It is frustrating to learn that from your experience Wero is also no good alternative for PP. Do you think there is anything we can do to persuade our banks that we want a different, better Wero? I have not so much hope for mine, but would be willing to use any serious EU bank providing a good PP alternative, which can be used worldwide.

PS: If such discussion should not be wanted in /c/europe, it could be a good fit for !buyfromeu@feddit.org

[–] vollkorntomate@infosec.pub 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I think itβ€˜s inherently difficult to persuade thousands of banks in Europe (and potentially worldwide) to actively join Wero, or any other service for that matter.

In my opinion, Wero – to be a viable option for anyone – should make their service something that the people can and WANT to use. Maybe I’m naive but adding the option to connect a bank account via IBAN and SEPA mandate shouldn’t be too complicated, right?

[–] albert180@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

PayPal charges very high transaction fees (1-3%). For credit cards they are capped due to EU Regulations at a relatively low rate. Wero is planning to introduce their own payments card, and in order to convince merchants to accept it they need to offer lower rates. That might prove difficult if they take the risk of payment failure on your side after they paid already the merchant.

By directly integrating with your bank, they are avoiding that risk.

Also the banks participating are already big in offering terminals to providers, and their customers use already their national payment cards (often cobadged with MC/Visa, but preferring the national system when possible). So they have a good position in establishing it in the Market, if they have a long enough breath. The Cheapskate Banks, with the customers looking to save every cent possible will only integrate when using these cards will make them more money, or if not having it will put them at disadvantage with the competition. (Customers not wanting to use American Systems or Acceptance of MC/Visa going down in favour of Wero (more unlikely))

Maybe there might be a prepaid solution as with TWINT in the future. But right now they just have the Send money to other user functionality so it doesn't make sense to offer this at this point.

The Merchant Payment system is coming later

[–] SigmarStern@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Came here to say that Switzerland somehow managed to introduce a competitor to Paypal that works flawlessly and EVERYBODY uses it. Twint is the first app I was told to install.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 months ago

Portugal has a similar System (MBWay) with the interesting part that all ATMs are running the same software, so the app is optional and you can use the same features also at any ATM including things like paying your taxes or recharging you mobile phone (all carriers supported).

[–] vollkorntomate@infosec.pub 1 points 2 months ago

I get what you’re saying and agree that high transaction fees keep merchants from offering it as a payment option.

However, in my rant I’m merely talking about P2P money transfers, nothing B2C. And since most people are lazy and scrimpers, a service needs to have a very good offer for people to start using it. That’s where Wero could improve, in my opinion.

Plus, having a large user base would help them in the long run with convincing merchants to offer Wero as a payment option, wouldn’t it?

[–] marv99 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I am not from the banking business, but as this worked for PP, I would assume that such connection should easily doable for our banks, too.

[–] umfk@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Wero relies on instant bank transfers which are not supported by DKB yet but will be mandatory later this year. I am pretty sure DKB will start supporting wero at that point. Wero itself is not feature complete yet though so it will be a few more years until it can replace PayPal and credit cards.

[–] a887dcd7a@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Same.

Already reached out to them anf told them not being ready and aware of #buyFromEU could be a missed chance.

[–] 30p87 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Honestly - I just use bank transfer for many things. It massively simplifies financial stuff anyway (no need to compare both transaction lists to determine how much is yet to be debited, as paypal is delayed). The problem is that it requires people to know your IBAN, and they could therefore make a direct debit to that account.

[–] jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

There are some initiatives to allow routing transfers with aliases like email address or phone number, but unfortunately they are fragmented and depend on banks joining the initiatives.

[–] Lemmchen 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Isn't that money laundering?

[–] jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 months ago

Why would it be? The banks and consequently the tax offices know who owns the accounts.

[–] 30p87 1 points 2 months ago

Or you could make an extra sub-account (yes, costs like 10€/year, but oh well), which can't use direct debit. Or the other way around, an account specifically for direct debit.

[–] Teppichbrand 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

From 09.10.2025 on, you can send money from one account to any other in Europe in an instant and without additional costs. My bank and many other already offer this insta payment-upgrade. I hope we don't need any other additional service by then.
Getting people to use anything but PayPal is already a challenge, as they are not used to working with their IBANs.

[–] umfk@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

That is exactly the system wero is using. A wero transfer IS an instant bank transfer in the background

[–] albert180@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Well then switch Banks to one that supports it. DKB is a bank for cheapskates and looks to save money where they can (like integrating with EPI). There are other free Bank Accounts with banks that are part of the EPI.

I understand that the owning banks want to have a competitive advantage over one another

Yeah that's bullshit. Nobody is keeping DKB out, they don't want to integrate. It's the same thing with them pushing their American credit cards over the German Girocard System, because they earn them more money.

[–] b_engelenburg@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I think you are to pessimistic about wero. just give it time. The reason why here in the netherlands paypal, mastercard and visa are not a significant factor in the dutch online payments is because we have a payment system called ideal ( initiated by the main dutch banks and open to any bank wanting to support it), since 6 months wero is the owner of ideal and and without a dount wero will replace ideal in future but only if it is functional equivalent.

[–] 1stQ 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Any opinions about Klarna? I was thinking about switching to them. Have only read they're Swedish.

[–] Lemmchen 8 points 2 months ago

Please don't. AFAIK Klarna only exists to sell user data and tempt their user base to go into debt via their credit system.