this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2024
8 points (90.0% liked)

Technology

58145 readers
3813 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 24 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] magic_smoke@links.hackliberty.org 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Neat, how about actually making some sweeping regulations tackling corporate EULA-washed malware?

Why do companies get to keep injecting spyware and even rootkits into their OS/software without ever explaining the consequences in a way a lay person can understand?

Used to be when companies did that they got punished. Anyone remember that Sony BMG case with rootkit enabled DRM, or BonziBuddy who's EULA allowed developers to sell your information to advertisers?

Remember the fucking stink people threw over them? Remember the fucking lawsuits? This shit is just a normal Tuesday for MFAANG. Shit even fucking video games are pushing rootkits down your throat these days. They need to be spanked BAD.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It raises the question what does or doesn't count as an addictive feed. I bet this doesn't specify any particular dark pattern or monetization model.

If we gave half a fuck about mental wellnes regarding mobile use, we would have addressed all this when it was particular to mobile games.

No, this is about our kids learning early how fucked society is, and how their own generation is being fed a pro-ownership-class indoctrination regimen before being appointed a string of dead-end toxic jobs.

Social media is how we learn about the genocide in Gaza, police officer-involved homicide rates, and unionization efforts. and that is why we want kids off social media.

Don't make me put up the koala cartoon again.

I agree with the first two paragraphs, but the rest really feels like you projecting your political and social outlook on the situation.

Social media provides and strengthens biased worldviews and confirmation bias. If you stick to social media, you'll think violent crime is rapidly increasing (in the US), but it's actually down. It's still a problem, but it's being used to push political agendas that don't actually solve the problem. For example, banning bump stocks, which are almost never used in mass shootings (most of those are handguns), and make guns way less accurate. Only enthusiasts get them, and pretty much only for range use. And you also have to pull the trigger each time, it just makes that easier (can get the same effect with a rubber band...). It's also how we got the anti-vax movement and various other conspiracies.

Social media is one way to get less censored news, but it's unreliable and tends to lead to echo chambers. We should instead be pushing to get government and political bias out of news reporting (or at least make bias explicit), not protect the less trustworthy, biased social media based news sources. There are countless examples of large social media sources providing incorrect information, and never correcting it, and the false information gets more views than the correct information. Social media drives people toward radicalization, and it's largely how we got Trump.

Social media is a liability. Mobile games are too. Parents should be restricting their children's access to both (we do), and instead teaching children to recognize bias and find good information (we're working on that, but they're still young).

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

This is just going to end one of two ways:

  • companies storing and selling even more personally identifiable information
  • kids lying

Probably both.

So I'm going with no. I'm a responsible parent and I'm preventing my kids from accessing social media and teaching them how to find reliable information. As they earn my trust with other services, I'll slowly remove restrictions. If I think my kids are ready for SM, I'll let them have access, using a VPN to avoid state restrictions as needed.

[–] Spotlight7573@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

For scenario one, they totally need to delete the data used for age verification after they collect it according to the law (unless another law says they have to keep it) and you can trust every company to follow the law.

For scenario two, that's where the age verification requirements of the law come in.

You've never heard of kids getting fake IDs?

This law doesn't stipulate how services prove age (at least according to the article), and if kids want something, they'll find a way to get it.

[–] MenacingPerson@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Social media.

[–] regrub@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The data protection laws are good, but a lot of the other bills for banning dark patterns and other annoying "features" sound difficult to enforce

[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Eh, whackamole enforcement usually cuts mustard with this kind of stuff.

Like yeah someone's gonna do it anyways just because, but then all it takes is enough people raising an alarm to bring it down, and as a side effect, remove more shitass developers from the market.

You end up with an equilibrium where not every example is getting the hammers of justice, but enough examples are that the average consumer still feels the benefit of a noticeably less toxic internet.

[–] NateNate60@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The effectiveness of bans has always hinged on two factors:

  • The likelihood of being caught
  • The severity of punishment if caught

For example, everyone knows that the odds of being caught speeding are pretty low, but if the punishment for speeding is ten years imprisonment, then very few people will risk speeding.

Similarly, even if the odds of getting caught violating this law is only 1%, if the punishment is banning the platform and shutting down the company along with a fine equal to a year's worth of revenue, then companies will probably not want to risk it.

[–] onion@feddit.de 0 points 3 months ago

I've heard the severity actually doesn't work as deterrent, people tend to assume they don't get caught

[–] ryper@lemmy.ca 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Why are "addictive feeds" OK for adults?

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 months ago

They aren't, but adults are allowed to decide about that addiction

[–] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world -3 points 3 months ago

Because you don't have the votes for your fascist nanny state.

[–] captainjaneway@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

How do they prove your age? Non-technical savvy people probably just give their kids a phone and don't do much to lock it down.

[–] Spotlight7573@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

From the description of the bill law (bold added):

https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2023/S7694A

To limit access to addictive feeds, this act will require social media companies to use commercially reasonable methods to determine user age. Regulations by the attorney general will provide guidance, but this flexible standard will be based on the totality of the circumstances, including the size, financial resources, and technical capabilities of a given social media company, and the costs and effectiveness of available age determination techniques for users of a given social media platform. For example, if a social media company is technically and financially capable of effectively determining the age of a user based on its existing data concerning that user, it may be commercially reasonable to present that as an age determination option to users. Although the legislature considered a statutory mandate for companies to respect automated browser or device signals whereby users can inform a covered operator that they are a covered minor, we determined that the attorney general would already have discretion to promulgate such a mandate through its rulemaking authority related to commercially reasonable and technologically feasible age determination methods. The legislature believes that such a mandate can be more effectively considered and tailored through that rulemaking process. Existing New York antidiscrimination laws and the attorney general's regulations will require, regardless, that social media companies provide a range of age verification methods all New Yorkers can use, and will not use age assurance methods that rely solely on biometrics or require government identification that many New Yorkers do not possess.

In other words: sites will have to figure it out and make sure that it's both effective and non-discriminatory, and the safe option would be for sites to treat everyone like children until proven otherwise.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So they're all going to request, store, and sell even more personally identifiable information.

[–] Spotlight7573@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, no, no, it's super secure you see, they have this in the law too:

Information collected for the purpose of determining a covered user's age under paragraph (a) of subdivision one of this section shall not be used for any purpose other than age determination and shall be deleted immediately after an attempt to determine a covered user's age, except where necessary for compliance with any applicable provisions of New York state or federal law or regulation.

And they'll totally never be hacked.

And that exception seems like companies could say something like, "but what about second verification?"

Nope, I don't trust companies to actually delete stuff.

[–] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world -2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This shit applies directly to lemmy. Y'all seem to be blinded by your hate of TikTok.

[–] Toribor@corndog.social 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The problem is algorithmically driven content feeds and the lack of transparency around them. These algorithms drive engagement which prioritizes content that makes people angry, not content that make people happy. These feeds are full of misinformation, conspiratorial thinking, rage bait, and other negativity with very little user control to protect themselves, curate the feed or to have neutral access to news and politics.

Lemmy sorts content very simply based on user upvotes. If you want to know why you're seeing a post you can see exactly who upvoted it and what instances that traffic came from. It's not immune to being manipulated but it can't be done secretly or in a centralized way.

Yet based on their actions we already know that Facebook has levers they can pull to directly affect the amount of news people see about a specific topic, let alone the source of information on that topic. These big social media companies guard these proprietary algorithms that are directly determining what news people see on a massive scale. Sure they claim to be a neutral arbiter of content that just gives people what they want but why would anyone believe them?

Lemmy is not the same thing, though it's not without its own problems.

[–] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world -3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Lemmy has hot and top. All of these fall into addicting algorithms.

[–] Toribor@corndog.social 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Here is a bit of information on how Lemmy's "Hot" sorting works.

I'm not going to argue about how addictive any specific feed or sorting method is, but this method is content neutral, does not adjust based on user behavior (besides which communities you subscribe to) and is completely transparent as all post interactions are public. With this type of sorting users can be sure that certain content is not prioritized over others (outside of mod actions which are also public). Having a more neutral straightforward ranking system that isn't based on user behavior reduces addictiveness and is less likely to form echo chambers. This makes it easier to see more diverse content, reduces the spread of misinformation and is much more difficult to manipulate.